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  1. #1
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    Default Should NATO be Disbanded?

    what do you think?
    NATO was originally formed to counterbalance soviet russia's impemding invasion.
    Instead, the soviets lost the cold war, russia collapsed and european security is assured.
    NATO's reason for existence had been removed. why then is it still around?
    Is it a tool for successive USGovernments to enforce their agenda around the will under the umbrella of 'multilateral operations'?
    surely the existence of EU militant task forces ensure european security?
    found a good site that sums up the pros and cons:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    NATO stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. It is an international military body currently consisting of nineteen European and North American states. It was set up during the cold war as a counter balance against the Warsaw Pact (comprising the Soviet Union and Eastern European communist countries). NATO’s doctrine, developed during the cold war, was based around the concept of collective security; an attack against any one member country would be viewed as an attack against all member countries, which would then be obliged to defend the attacked state. This doctrine is still central to NATO’s strategic thinking although its role has dramatically changed since the end of the cold war. In many senses NATO is now a ‘European Policeman’, in theory, able to provide rapid response to a crisis. In this new role it has intervened in Bosnia and Kosovo.

    Arguments
    ProsConsNATO is a relic of the Cold War. It may have been necessary in then but it is now an anachronism. Much of NATO’s thinking is based around an outdated Cold War philosophy. It is trying to carve a role for itself as ‘Europe’s Policeman’ but it has no authority to fulfil that role. Indeed, it does active harm in this role by undermining the United Nations. The member countries of NATO would be better deploying their military strength through the UN, which has the legitimacy to authorise the use of force where necessary.NATO has undergone a mammoth programme of reform. The boarder areas around Europe are very unstable and it is in everyone’s interests that regional stability is maintained. This is not only important for the physical safety of Europeans but also for the economic prosperity of the region. Due to its composition NATO is a legitimate body to act in Europe.The very existence of NATO and its current expansionist policies are threatening toward Russia. Many ultra nationalist parties have gained popular support in Russia by running on an anti-Western agenda generally and anti-NATO policy specifically. Ironically NATO, which helped to end the Cold War, is helping to bring about a Russian administration hostile to the West. NATO expansion has also been an enormous barrier to trade between Russia and the West. Furthermore, there is a strong need for close cooperation between Russia and the West over the safe disassembly of Russia’s nuclear weapons. This programme has been hindered greatly by NATO expansion.NATO has cooperated carefully with Russia to ensure that its expansion has not caused rifts. The Founding Act, signed with Russia in 1997, laid down a framework in which Russia and NATO could cooperate. The agreement not only included military cooperation but economic cooperation as well. NATO is being seen as less and less of a threat from Russia. For example, the Russian Duma has now ratified START II in spite of its earlier refusal to do so because of NATO expansion.NATO is currently ineffective. It is governed by the council, which makes all its key decision. The current size of the council hinders fast decision-making, preventing it from fulfilling the role it has created for itself. Its doctrine of collective security is also outdated. It is inevitable that the whole of NATO would be dragged into a war effecting just one of its members. Many of NATO countries (e.g. Turkey, the Czech republic and Poland) border on unstable areas. It seems absurd that the whole of NATO should be brought into a war over a Turkish border skirmish. There are also big disparities within NATO between the military capabilities of its various member states e.g. USA and Poland. This results in tactical difficulties deploying military units from different countries together.It is no coincidence that since the end of the cold war the number of smaller regional conflicts has increased dramatically. The rigid system of alliances which bound states to either the Western or Eastern power bloc during the cold war have now collapsed resulting in, for example, the break up of and subsequent slaughter in the former Yugoslavia. International intervention in such crises is necessary. NATO can respond much quicker than the UN and is the only military force with the ability to successfully intervene in the most delicate of conflicts. Its interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo were both successful. The NATO troops left in Bosnia have helped ease ethnic tensions and are currently helping to restore the ethnic balance in Kosovo as well as policing the region.

    source: http://www.idebate.org/debatabase/to...php?topicID=58

    Should NATO be disbanded?

    Discuss

  2. #2
    Trey's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    I don't believe it's truly necessary. However, all the nations are free to leave if they wish. No one is keeping them there. And that tells me that all feel as if they are benefiting from some way in the alliance. Which is why alliances are created in the first place.
    for-profit death machine.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    NATO's reason for existence had been removed. why then is it still around?
    As long as there are countries that are not pro-Western, NATO is needed for any potential threat on the West that posed or can be posed by these countries. Besides, being part of a very strong military alliance can never be bad.
    Sigh...

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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aziel View Post
    As long as there are countries that are not pro-Western, NATO is needed for any potential threat on the West that posed or can be posed by these countries. Besides, being part of a very strong military alliance can never be bad.
    surely the existence of an EU armed forces would mean NATO's purpose in protecting europe is defunct.
    how did it benefit NATO countries to follow America's war on terror?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    NATO has no purpose and neither does the UN.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Champion View Post
    NATO has no purpose and neither does the UN.
    I thought they were controlling the world? or are they not lucky enough to be part of your conspiricy theory?
    Hammer & Sickle - Karacharovo

    And I drank it strait down.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Champion View Post
    NATO has no purpose and neither does the UN.
    x2

    UN's ing worthless IMO

  8. #8

    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerbear View Post
    yes, from geopolitical perspective, Kosovo was a huge blunder. but from a pure military/security perspective, it was OK in my books. Serbian and Albanian nationalists might disagree with me, but I definitily did not hear about any major blood spillings after the war was over (unlike in case with Afghanistan, for example).


    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerbear View Post
    Serbian and Albanian nationalists might disagree with me
    No sir, simple facts disagree with you :

    If there is one clear example as for why NATO should be disbanded - it is the huge blunders in Kosovo - exactly from the perspective of security/military aspect, that exposed NATO for what it is for the first time after the cold war - an aggressive military alliance that serves the geopolitical purpose of the Euro-Atlantic empire of the NWO in the making:

    (I will omit the links cause this is not the Kosovo thread, but you can check trough Mk1 to Mk4 of it to find all the links you may need)

    1. military perspective: they failed to destroy, no, failed to even afflict serious damage to the ground forces and the dug-in infrastructure of Army of Yugoslavia (during the course of the war), failed to achieve the objective from "Rambuje" - occupy the entire FRY/Serbia, even suffered much greater losses than expected (certainly much greater than officially known).

    Within the military perspective I will also count in the huge loss of credibility due to the deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure which lead to the dirctly killing of over 1500 Serbian AND ALBANIAN civilians! (and indirectly even more, due to all kinds of shortages afflicted)

    2. security perspective: they obliged themselves, under the "Kumanovo Accord" to protect the Serb civilian population in Kosovo. Instead, they set idle while the KLA beasts slaughtered and raped and kidnapped hundreds of innocent Serb civilians (mostly in 1999. immediately after the NATO came in - but it pretty much went on till today) and ethnically cleansed the province of over 200.000 Serbs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerbear View Post
    I definitely did not hear about any major blood spillings after the war was over(unlike in case with Afghanistan, for example)
    I apologize if up to 1000 slaughtered and vivisected civilians does not constitute a "major bloodspilling" to you - but I would than have to argue that, and here I must also apologize to all of the Afghans and Iraqis, exactly because we're talkin' about the "heartland of Europe" - it counts equally as 10.000+ Asian civilians. That's because European security and European blood is worth 10x the Asian blood and security. (bitter sarcasm )

    Also, it is unprecedented in modern history that an army force of 17.000 Christians (KFOR) looks the other way while a virtual razing to the ground of every trace of Christian European culture (Serb medieval monasteries and churches) is attempted and very much achieved in the course of just
    3 bloody days (17th of March 2004) - accompanied by virtual violent purge of the people of that same culture (the Serbs)

    Not to even mention that most of the Serb victims were women, children, teens and elderly - and that those kidnapped have been used as involuntary organ "donors" by the Albanian organ harvesting zombies

    All that under the very nose of the very force charged with their security - the NATO's KFOR mission!

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerbear View Post
    yes, from geopolitical perspective, Kosovo was a huge blunder.
    No, from geopolitical perspective, it was an overall success (neither it was a "huge success" indeed, but an 80% success it was and still is):

    1. NATO did manage to brake down Milosević's (NOT Serbian though, we were ready and willing, as a nation (and many of us still are) to fight the war of extinction to the very bitter end - but the greedy bastard signed the truce to save his fat ass in power) will to fight and achieve the primary goal of occupying Kosovo & Metohija without firing a single bullet on the ground. Loosing a bunch of aircraft and a few dozen men was perfectly acceptable for them, as long as no major influx of coffins was experienced at home.

    2. By doing that, they have firmly entrenched themselves in the strategically most important highground in the heartland of Balkans - on top of that abundant with all kinds of ore (some of it pretty damn rare and expensive, like molybdenum for example).

    3. They have secured the survival of the Albanian mafia and their ability to safely continue the operation of trafficking the Afgan opium - via one of the most important drug-routes in the world (Kosovo being it's juncture) - thus secured that the CIA grey funds remain unharmed by any shortages (like the one experienced in 1998. - when Serbian police destroyed the KLA and pulverized the Albanian mafia in the province)

    4. They have successfully dethroned their former pet - Milošević, who became to independent and too close with Moscow in the meanwhile, and installed a puppet-regime in Serbia, thus acquiring an ability to destabilize the country as they see fit - and fit they will see it as soon as the South Stream steams up....

    EDIT:

    5. They've opened up the possibility of their trusty Allie - Albania - expanding her territory north/south/east(even possibly west)wards, which will be of great importance should the Nabuko pipeline finally get started


    All in all Czar, your first -rep. post since I know you and read your posts

    But after all, you're just a human being like the rest of us
    Last edited by Војвода Драгути&; January 26, 2009 at 08:24 PM. Reason: number 5 under *geopolitics*


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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    the UN has a benign purpose, NATO less so i'm afraid

    EDIT: the SCO isnt even like NATO

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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Adrian Hamilton: Time to disband Nato now the Cold War is over?

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    It was Harold Macmillan, ever shrewd in the ways of politics, who said that the only way to hold a successful summit was to have the communiqué already written before you arrived. On that reading, the Nato summit in Bucharest has all the elements of a truly miserable failure.

    The participants are at odds over expansion to the East, with the US, backed by the new entrants, urging Georgian and Ukrainian membership against the public doubts of Germany and the vehement opposition of Russia. The core members are at odds over their individual contributions to the war in Afghan-istan. Even on what should be the relatively uncontentious issue of bringing Macedonia into the organisation, the Greeks are threatening to veto the move unless the new member changes its name.
    If this were a family it would compete with the Royal Tenenbaums for disfunctionality. Of course it won't be allowed to end in a climax of slammed doors. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is regarded as far too important, and prestigious, for that. Indeed no Nato meeting is complete without a chorus of pronouncements by premiers, politicians and pundits stressing just how important the alliance is to the West and how, despite the end of the Cold War that was its raison d'etre, it is still needed more than ever in the post 9/11 world.
    All true, no doubt – or at least in part. Nato has been an extra-ordinarily effective organisation in locking the US into Europe militarily and in containing the Soviet Union. But past pre-eminence is no guide to future purpose and it is the lack of definition of what Nato is for that is now producing all the strains.
    With the Cold War the organisation had a defined enemy and a clear function – to defend Western Europe against conventional or nuclear assault. Without the Cold War it has no clear enemy or function, only the persistence of a well-honed military structure. The "War on Terror" proponents – President Bush with Gordon Brown padding along behind him – see that honed structure as a ready-made means of combating the new enemies in a world of Muslim extremism and nuclear proliferation. If Europe was its theatre of operations in the Cold War, Nato's role after 9/11 is, according to this doctrine, to go "out of theatre" to engage in operations in Afghanistan, the Middle East, Africa or wherever else a threat is perceived.
    At the same time President Bush, in pursuit of his vision of "democracy" around the world and in search of a legacy for his failing presidency, wants to use Nato membership to secure the new democracies of the Orange and Rose revolutions. Hence his enthusiasm to start the process of entry for Ukraine and Georgia. Add to that a new President of France who wants re-entry to full military participation in Nato as a means to take France back to the heart of international decision-making, and you have more energy for movement in Nato than in a generation.
    Only it is an energy without consensus or agreed direction. The reluctance of member states to send more troops to Afghanistan or to send them to the hot spots is not, as Washington would brief, a matter of cowardice or parsimony. It is because, for a number of European countries, there is no public support after Iraq for an operation which makes Nato troops into a white, Western occupying force charged with rooting out drugs, confronting local warlords and instituting civil reconstruction – tasks for which Nato troops are not trained and which make them participants in local rivalries.
    In the same way President Bush, and the Ukrainian and Georgian leaders, would make eastward expansion into a matter of facing down Russia. But fear of Russia is not the main reason for German (and French, Belgian and Dutch) doubts. The problem is that expansion this far east would take Nato right into the middle of the conflict between Russian and Ukrainian speaking halves of Ukraine, never mind the problem of the breakaway parts of Georgia, disputes that could easily escalate into confrontation with Moscow. For the very reason that the two countries want membership, the organisation should be wary of it. For, as Moscow not unreasonably argues, if Russia is no longer regarded as the enemy, why are we doing it and in such haste?
    This isn't a case of: if we didn't have Nato we'd have to invent it. The opposite is true. If we didn't have Nato we'd invent something quite different at this point. We would be involved in a different way, if at all, in Afghanistan. We'd be using membership of the EU as the means of securing the democracies of the former Soviet republics. And we'd be developing an independent European defence capability.
    The fearful prospect at Bucharest is that, by allowing Nato to be driven in new directions without confronting the hard questions on its future, we are in danger of breaking the whole alliance on which it is founded.
    source: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...er-804013.html

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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Given the current financial state of the world I don't plan to even discuss the legitimacy of NATO. It has served a great purpose for the free world and is critical to my administration's success in stabilizing Afghanistan.

    Sincerely,
    Your Commander-In-Chief

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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    Given the current financial state of the world I don't plan to even discuss the legitimacy of NATO. It has served a great purpose for the free world and is critical to my administration's success in stabilizing Afghanistan.

    Sincerely,
    Your Commander-In-Chief
    Mr President
    Tear down this wall...the wall your predecessors built against other countries.
    NATO fcilitates that wall and division amongst countris.
    dont u know that for the EU to be great, they must step froma underneath the US's shadow? NATO beingthat shadow?

  14. #14
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Mr President
    Tear down this wall...the wall your predecessors built against other countries.
    NATO fcilitates that wall and division amongst countris.
    dont u know that for the EU to be great, they must step froma underneath the US's shadow? NATO beingthat shadow?


    SEMPER FIDELIS Remember Constantinople Κωνσταντινούπολη


  15. #15

    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    Given the current financial state of the world I don't plan to even discuss the legitimacy of NATO.
    then why are you even posting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    It has served a great purpose for the free world and is critical to my administration's success in stabilizing Afghanistan.
    "free world" ???
    "YOUR" administration ???

    Make sure Hillary&Co. don't find out you're posting here without their permission, otherwise you'll get grounded mister

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    Sincerely,
    Your Commander-In-Chief
    ...kids these days, you let them live in the white house and all of a sudden they imagine they're in command


  16. #16

    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    Given the current financial state of the world I don't plan to even discuss the legitimacy of NATO. It has served a great purpose for the free world and is critical to my administration's success in stabilizing Afghanistan.

    Sincerely,
    Your Commander-In-Chief
    Well sounds like you've alot of work to do Mr President. You'd better get to it.

    Or...seeing as how you're spending time posting on an obscure video game site, I can only assume the you have already fixed the world economy...

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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Or...seeing as how you're spending time posting on an obscure video game site, I can only assume the you have already fixed the world economy...
    I use my Blackberry in between meetings to post here. Keeps the edge off.

  18. #18
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    I use my Blackberry in between meetings to post here. Keeps the edge off.
    Yes, because Obama is secretly an avid TW fan. No wonder he wants a nice comp in the White House


  19. #19

    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    I use my Blackberry in between meetings to post here. Keeps the edge off.
    Touché Mr President.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Should NATO be Disbanded?

    Hope, change, dreams, peace, audacity.

    That is all.

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