Who really controls our countries...

[dogukan]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES....READ BEFORE POSTING.



We all know there have been many theories about many events that lead to even bigger events.
You know some people say USA is controlled by Jewish lobby and leaders of big corporations...but what we see is that countries are ruled by those who are in the parliement.
Realistically these people would do anything to gain power so I sort of believe that these people would be in touch with these "secret powers". This is probably like that in most of the democratic countries around the world considering no country makes major changes when a new party is elected.

I want to ask my question through the country I live in, Turkey. Until 80s there had been many murders and terror attacks but the attackers were known. It was because of left-right fights. After the coup of 80 things have changed a lot. It is said that government(who are they anyways?) created an organisation which purposes to create an anarchic atmosphere to open the ground for possible coups. Counter- guerillas, these trained agents would attack both left and right wing. And now after years, it appears that they got out of control and are in clsoe relations with mafia and everything dark in the country.
Pretty similar to this gladio organisation once was related to NATO to prevent countries from falling into hands of left.

Now how can a secret organisation can benefit from killing members of radical religious ones, nationalists, left,ists and radical leftists? Who are the real powers behind these kind of people?
(as an example:You might believe deaths of people like Hrant Dink(Armenian journalist) are just becuase a nationalist guy went mad and killed him, but when you actually know what has been going on in Turkey you wouldn't think it is that simple.)
Sometimes(NOT THAT I REALLY THINK-AS AN EXAMPLE) I think PKK(which claims it is marxist) is created by government or something like that to make people feel anti-leftist and more nationalist. Meanwhile the religous ones AKP are winning hearts of Kurds and taking their support. Left on the other hand is getting smashed and losing it's power. And today with this ERGENEKON OPERATION we see that many counter-guerilla/mafia/deep state members are getting arrested under the AKP...it is really confusing isn't it? Any theories?


hint:this is also related to effectiveness of army in the Turkish politics to those who lvoe bashing Turkey

[Bovril]

Conspiracy theories are such an intellectually lazy get out. Things are far more transparent than you think. But good analysis does take time and effort and, more than anything else, a willingness not to buy into Hollywood style mythologies of either power or dissent.

[Blau&Gruen]

It might be that the gladio successor organizations are still active in Turkey but Turkey has plurality and Turkey will likely arrive one day in a situation where Spain and Portugal have arrived only recently. It is very human to look back and to search orientation in the past while this past is already behind.

[dogukan]

It might be that the gladio successor organizations are still active in Turkey but Turkey has plurality and Turkey will likely arrive one day in a situation where Spain and Portugal have arrived only recently. It is very human to look back and to search orientation in the past while this past is already behind.

THANK GOD you understood me

[ComnenusTheOne]

Dont you think that if we as individuals or masses, or whatever, could understand their motives and their profits of their actions, then we would have done something about it?

[dogukan]

Dont you think that if we as individuals or masses, or whatever, could understand their motives and their profits of their actions, then we would have done something about it?

Yes....and it has been done in Europe. Turkey's population doesN't have as high consciousness as Europe. So these problems still exist in Turkey. And I bet in America too....ask to the Greeks. They themselves used to say "we are controlled by CIA"...these are not conspiracies. These are very logical things.

Merged.

Conspiracy theories are such an intellectually lazy get out. Things are far more transparent than you think. But good analysis does take time and effort and, more than anything else, a willingness not to buy into Hollywood style mythologies of either power or dissent.

Please....that is not what I was talking about at all. This is not about twin towers or anything like that. Hace you heard of the Ergenekon case in Turkey in which many many intellectuals, mafia leaders are being arrested?

[Haakon]

Who really controls our countries?

Good thread. I think its the ones it has always been. The nobles. They might not live in castles or wear shiny armour like they once did. But its still wealthy people who are pulling strings. The political left are not innocent either. The few who started off poor soon got corrupted and started playing the same game their enemies did.

It might sound funny, but I think the ones that should rule is the ones that doesnt want to rule. I dont trust people who seek power.

[manofarms89]

Good thread. I think its the ones it has always been. The nobles. They might not live in castles or wear shiny armour like they once did. But its still wealthy people who are pulling strings. The political left are not innocent either. The few who started off poor soon got corrupted and started playing the same game their enemies did.

It might sound funny, but I think the ones that should rule is the ones that doesnt want to rule. I dont trust people who seek power.

i get what you're saying but usually someone with the kind of characteristics we would want in a leader would have already decided that he wants to be in some kind of position of power himself.

[Heathen Hammer]

Multinational corporations and various political and economic elites.

[dogukan]

how many of you realized that I was talking about COUNTER-GUERILLAS and NOT about big corporations or conspiracy theories?

[Shigawire]

Ok. There are two extreme character types in perceiving reality:

1.Conspiracy or Religious Nut. The brain of a Nut has hyperactive upper temporal lobes. The Nut finds a pattern to everything, and always prefers the most sensationalist explanation that fits with a preferred world view. Because this stimulates the brain - causing almost orgasmic soft seizures in the temporal lobes. Some Nuts may be inspired by people like David Icke and study videos of media personalities and world leaders, to look for signs that the person is in fact a "reptilian" or "lizard." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj8741m2jLc
According to some Nuts, licking around the lips may be an indicator of lizardness - this is apparently a more likely scenario than the person is just trying to wet dry lips. Other Nuts may perceive the world events in the light of their religious world view. The tsunami in Asia for instance was a punishment against Homosexuals and such.
When the Nut analyses a situation or a historical event, it will do so by combining real events with completely inert and irrelevant data derived from deranged calculations. Numerology (11th November - the NWO killed Yasser Arafat - 11.11), Geometric patterns (perceived pentagram around the White House in DC), magic words (New World Order).
The Nut - in contrast with the Sheeple - may have anything between a very high or a very low IQ. Despite intelligence, the Nut may have trouble acquiring some of the finer jobs, due to the controversiality and outspokenness of its views. It may also provide a turbulent factor in social situations. Still you can find this Nut in almost any field of work. But the Nut is not necessarily so willing to join in an armed enterprise such as war. First this must fit with the world view. For example a Religious Nut may join the war in the middle-east for its own twisted reasons.

2.All the iterations between 1 and 3.

3.Sheeple. This creature has a relatively dormant brain in general. It is useful for performing menial tasks, cleaning, reproducing, and most importantly has unquestioning loyalty to authority. Suffice to say, this creature can be counted on to join the Army to volunteer as cannon-fodder.
The Sheeple's analysis of historical and current events is colored entirely by the Sheeple's favorite news channel (whichever channel can keep in check the Sheeple's attention-deficit the longest). Be it Fox News, Discovery Channel, etc. But the source must be "official." If Rumsfeld says there are WMD in Iraq, then they are still hidden somewhere in Iraq right now - or were sent to Syria. The prospect of authorities lying would never cross the Sheeple's mind. Gleefully dismissing any evidence to the contrary, Lee Harvey Oswald was indeed the lone gunman. Thankfully there is no meaningful dissent to be expected from a Sheeple. Its dissent is limited to voicing generic distrust to the amorphous body known as "politicians" - in the usual colloquial manner of "Bah! Those bloody politicians!" Dissent like this is much like the burps and farts of a cow grazing on a meadow. It will accept a gradual lowering of wages until it becomes a hobo, and even as a hobo it will continue its submissive muteness - solemnly pushing its shopping cart full of empty bottles down the nearest alley to get money for a pack of smokes. The Sheeple provides zero political unrest. Hence why the moniker "sheeple" has been derived from "people" and "sheep."

I'd like to think that the truth lies somewhere between the two.


Now, the Counter-Guerillas..
(I was about to type counter-gorillas LOL)

They are indeed a real factor in many countries. Though there are a few types of Counter-Guerillas. Political counter-guerillas we call "Provocateurs" - which were used by the British in Ireland during early 20th century, by the Pinkertons to ruin union meetings, and by the Nazis. Provocateurs were also employed during the FBI's now declassified program known as "COINTELPRO" targeting anti-war activist groups, and minority activists such as MLK Jr. The most recent examples of Provocateurs used to black-paint political movements that comes to my mind was the protests against the World Trade Organization in Seattle in 1995. In that case, the police were held back as masked provocateurs rampaged and damaged shops. The provocateurs were later protected and housed in a building.
Then you have genuine Counter-Guerillas such as the Contras in Nicaragua - essentially a Terror army sponsored by Reagan administration - trained at the School of the Americas (Torture Junior High). The purpose was to "counter" the political movement which had mass support in Nicaragua back then, the Sandinistas.

[dogukan]

What I'm talking about is A CASE IN TURKEY WHICH IS ARGUED BY ALMOST EVERY INTELLECTUAL ON TVS EVERYDAY....which is also related to TEH GLADIO CASE IN ITALY.
THIS IS NOT CONSPRICAY THESE ARE KNOWN THINGS.
Nato along with intelelgence agencies have formed these counter-guerilla organisation in western allies to prevent them from being leftists. Moslty in Netherlands,Germany,Italy, France and Turkey(and probably in Greece too)
Since the Soviet threat is gone these do not exist strongly in many of these countries anymore. Beacuse of the strgon mafia relations howewer this case grew in Italy.
It also continues in Turkey and is used by some people in the army as well as the nationalist party.
WHAT PART OF THIS IS CONSPIRACY THEORY????

[Niles Crane]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES....READ BEFORE POSTING.



We all know there have been many theories about many events that lead to even bigger events.
You know some people say USA is controlled by Jewish lobby and leaders of big corporations...but what we see is that countries are ruled by those who are in the parliement.
Realistically these people would do anything to gain power so I sort of believe that these people would be in touch with these "secret powers". This is probably like that in most of the democratic countries around the world considering no country makes major changes when a new party is elected.

I want to ask my question through the country I live in, Turkey. Until 80s there had been many murders and terror attacks but the attackers were known. It was because of left-right fights. After the coup of 80 things have changed a lot. It is said that government(who are they anyways?) created an organisation which purposes to create an anarchic atmosphere to open the ground for possible coups. Counter- guerillas, these trained agents would attack both left and right wing. And now after years, it appears that they got out of control and are in clsoe relations with mafia and everything dark in the country.
Pretty similar to this gladio organisation once was related to NATO to prevent countries from falling into hands of left.

Now how can a secret organisation can benefit from killing members of radical religious ones, nationalists, left,ists and radical leftists? Who are the real powers behind these kind of people?
(as an example:You might believe deaths of people like Hrant Dink(Armenian journalist) are just becuase a nationalist guy went mad and killed him, but when you actually know what has been going on in Turkey you wouldn't think it is that simple.)
Sometimes(NOT THAT I REALLY THINK-AS AN EXAMPLE) I think PKK(which claims it is marxist) is created by government or something like that to make people feel anti-leftist and more nationalist. Meanwhile the religous ones AKP are winning hearts of Kurds and taking their support. Left on the other hand is getting smashed and losing it's power. And today with this ERGENEKON OPERATION we see that many counter-guerilla/mafia/deep state members are getting arrested under the AKP...it is really confusing isn't it? Any theories?


hint:this is also related to effectiveness of army in the Turkish politics to those who lvoe bashing Turkey

The general public do.

[Blau&Gruen]

I agree with Octy, nice translation btw. of Russeau's expression.

Turkey goes through a difficult period.

[Zephyrus]

The general public do.

Nope! Because there are established rules by the elites of the countries that determine how the participants in an election are chosen. For instance, who sees the likelihood of John Doe, a 30 year old construction worker, running for election of POTUS? Rules have been emplaced and guarded by those to whom they want to control through monetary backing and special interest groups.

THATS governement in a nutshell.

[saglam2000]

you disappoint me.....

[Blau&Gruen]

What does disappoint you?

[dogukan]

you disappoint me.....

don't be sooo sad I'm not accusing the whole army. But there are somecorrupt people in intellegence and army and they have to be cleaned. Just like Italy did...I acn't live in a country where X person armed with a weapon taht is forbbiden in Turkey killing very valauble intellectuals/politicians.

[Каие]

Cleaned.

People this thread is becoming a mess. The topic and OP is about, to my understanding, some groups including guerilla groups and counter guerilla groups. I know there is a language barrier, but there is no need to troll endlessly for the lulz.

If you don't understand the topic.... say so, I'm sure the OP will explain himself.
If you don't want to contribute.... don't. You are under no obligation to post in every thread.

Thank you, opened.

[Treize]

Goverments (and the established parties) do lots of things to stay in power...
(like killing 'new' politicians)
And arresting/intimidating people who use free speech.