'spear', 'light_spear' and damage types - what you should know.

[alhoon]

As a note I haven't found the time to do the test yet.

[Taiji]

@Alhoon, Hey no probs mate, I've implemented changes to my system based on my findings and the battlefield is a much more interesting place now. If I'm not completely right I'm very close but still I am keen to see someone else confirm or refute my findings.

Taiji your opening post is a bit unclear. Do the spear attributes do -6 attack, or -6 defense?

How do you know it's precisely -6?

And how do you know 'spear' adds a substantial pushing power?

Hi Signifierone, I outline the test I did in post 16.

I know that 'spear' adds pushing power because without it they have less, you can see it. Although maybe it has become visible since our shuffle backwards animation has been switched with shuffle forwards in DLV. They can push units around where light_spear and normal cannot, units with the same mass are pushed.

I think that 'light_spear' does -6 defence vs all damage types because I have to raise defence by +6 to get them to fight evenly.

I think that spear does -6 vs all damage types except slashing for the same reason.

And the same for an additional -6 for slashing with 'spear', if I don't raise the 'spear' unit's defence by +12 when fighting the slashing unit they don't fight evenly.

Thanks for mentioning the clarity, I've tried to clean it up - I hope it's better now

As for the rigor, I tested on grassy plains with identical units. The fights take a at least few minutes so I speed them up and hold the mouse point over the bar which tells me causalty percentages - as time passes you can get a good idea of the even-ness of the fight, especially after you've done the test 10-15 times. If a general dies - test over, if a unit manages to outflank it's opponent - test over, too many on one side died on the charge, etc. anything which unbalances the fight ruins the experiment. I also tested to make sure the units fought evenly before adding spear or slashing damage. Plus I tested with the units switched in terms of AI or player control, though I'd already tested to make sure the AI unit never went 'idle' or 'marching' or 'reforming' and stayed on 'fighting' during the combat

The experiment does not produce statistical data, you have to watch the percentages and get an idea over time. I am confident it is reliable.

Since discovering it I have to admit that I've grown to like this +6 vs slashing, I was hoping the other damage types might do something but I've not found anything yet. I was hoping for a better AP modifier using piercing or blunt but through testing this does not seem to be the case. Neither does their effectiveness seem to be determined by smith level of the opponent If anyone has any ideas what blunt and piercing might effect please let me know so I can test it.

An implication of +6 slashing is that if you swap all instances of slashing for piercing then spearmen only have a -6 penalty in all situations and more pushing power.

The more obvious implication is that spear units need buffing on defence skill to work properly. If you have a 'light_spear' unit with 3 defence and another with 5 defence they actually both have 1 defence vs all infantry - this seems very important, you cannot deal effectively with the stats of spearmen without knowing this (sorry to be so pleased with myself but honestly so far I am hehehe)

@JaM, what is docudemon files? :hmmm:


EDIT: So, anyone refute my findings yet?

[Taiji]

Can anyone think of a good way to test this with cavalry?

I want to know whether the -6 defence vs all damage types on 'spear' and 'light_spear' works when cavalry are attacking. Ideally it doesn't but I can't think of a good way to test it.

[alhoon]

I made the checks. Light spear seems to give a -3 penalty to attacks vs infantry.

[Taiji]

Excellent, very interesting! How did you check it? and did you check 'spear'?

EDIT:

I just checked and found that 3 attack is just about right for the difference.

Did you test with 0 defence for both units? When I did I found that the unit with 3 more attack always won.

Perhaps it is something like -2 attack and -4 defence.... I'll try to test it.

that seems quite balanced too. My testing method is just not precise enough to pick up little differences, I might have to get more organised about this or maybe more clever

[alhoon]

I had something like 11 attack (spear), 6 defence vs 8 attack, 6 defence. If you use 0s or 1s you hit the floor. One thing I learned from my Masters in Geostatistics is that you have to apply each method within some limits, not at the extremes or you get fringe result effects. I.e. I avoid using 64 attack for example or 1 attack.

Also since the EDU mentions that spears give bonus vs cavalry and penalty against infantry I guess it's about attack, not defence. I.e I think Spears give -3 attack not +6 defence.

NOTE: By our combined experiments one of my suspicions was confirmed: 1 attack = about 2 defence.

I.e unit with 10 attack, 6 defence usually ties against unit with 8 attack, 10 defence.

[Taiji]

These seem to fight evenly for me for around 10+ battles:

stat_pri 14, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 40, 1 ;level 5
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_pri_armour 10, 16, 10, metal

and

stat_pri 10, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 40, 1 ;level 5
stat_pri_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 10, 10, metal

Which suggests -4 attack and -6 defence vs infantry for spear.

This combination seemed quite even after 15 or so tests:

stat_pri 10, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 40, 1 ;level 5
stat_pri_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 10, 14, 10, metal

and

stat_pri 10, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 40, 1 ;level 5
stat_pri_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 10, 10, metal

Which suggests that light_spear only gives a -4 defence, or -2 attack if as you suggest 1 att = 2 def, or then perhaps it's -1 attack and -2 defence.

It's often the test and the tester that creates the results and not the thing being tested, that's why I'm keen to get other perspectives

[alhoon]

Hmmm... In my case it was closer to -3 attack for Light spears instead of -2. I haven't check the full spears. I should have mentioned this before. My tests were with light spears.

[Taiji]

Well for me, I'm more confused than ever. The more I test the less I know... it's a good job I pay more attention to unit balancing in reall combat situations (...in the game) than to predictions based on understandings of the bonuses and penalties of using different stats.

I think the most important thing I've learnt is that spear is many times more wierd and interesting than light_spear. It's a shame I can't see a way to nullify the 'spear' cavalry bonuses because it would be an awesome attribute to give to heavy infantry. The pushing power is amazing, with unit A set to 1 mass+spear and B set to 1.8 mass B still gets pushed around.

The RTW EDU guide mentions that spear units lose cohesion and I've seen this many times but the way it works can be quite cool. No matter where the spear unit is attacked it pushes back, if it is surrounded it becomes like a hollow circle or line of men with the remaining men inside the circle engaging filling the gaps when frontliners go down or the space between units becomes wide enough. They do seem to mostly behave when in schiltrom formation though.

[Unvers]

I ask for RTW but since I found this topic I wonder if anyone has discovered what exactly the spear_bonus_8 does even if I think that it is not used in M2TW as there are no units that use the phalanx.