Religion and the State

[Lord Thesaurian]

The great roman general and dictator, Fabius Maximus, believed that religion is a tool to be used by the state to control the populace. he belived any free excercise of religion to be dangerous and foolish. The Roman Catholic Church has made brilliant use of religion, just as their fathers did. Your thoughts on, well, religion and the state:

[cenkiss]

In the modern days religion should be seperated from politics one reason being nations are not very homogeneus when it comes to religions and religions are tools made by people who lived hundreds years ago by the people that can not know about today's life so laws should be made based upon morality not religion.

[Dayman]

Personal beliefs should not be the business of the state. However the state should also not take into consideration religion either, so that way churches pay taxes and parents who pray for their kids cancer to go away instead of treating it or who don't immunize them should be overridden.

[Lord Thesaurian]

in the democratic world, religion and the government have no business with each other. but in the successful totalitarian state, they are inseperable.

[Justice and Mercy]

in the democratic world, religion and the government have no business with each other.

Unless the majority wish it to be so.

Welcome to democracy.

[Ragabash]

Unless the majority wish it to be so.

Welcome to democracy.

It's not as simple as that. There are many times constitutional rights that make it impossible (at least in theory) for many countries to favour one religion over another. Welcome to the world of secular states and republics.

[Bovril]

It's not as simple as that. There are many times constitutional rights that make it impossible (at least in theory) for many countries to favour one religion over another. Welcome to the world of secular states and republics.

Is there a democratic state currently existing that has an absolute and unchangeable ban on the state favouring a given religion or incorporating religious elements into legislation etc.?

[Ragabash]

Is there a democratic state currently existing that has an absolute and unchangeable ban on the state favouring a given religion or incorporating religious elements into legislation etc.?

Secularism in most western countries is so recognized and accepted fact, that it would require very dramatic environment to make it even slightly possible to alter legislation in to the direction of state religion. However, in many countries we can still see religious bias, like in U.S.A for an example; but the laws itself should not allow, or at least encourage this on state level.

And in some countries it's just not possible to change constitution, mentioning U.S.A again; 1:st amendment. I guess it's just easier to ignore this amendment (regarding this specific issue) than even try to propose a change for it (that is not currently possible).

[Djûn]

Is there a democratic state currently existing that has an absolute and unchangeable ban on the state favouring a given religion or incorporating religious elements into legislation etc.?

Article 14 European Convention on Human Rights?

Though it isn't absolute or unchangeable unfortunately.

[justicar5]

Is there a democratic state currently existing that has an absolute and unchangeable ban on the state favouring a given religion or incorporating religious elements into legislation etc.?

France afaik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_...ols_in_schools

[Justice and Mercy]

It's not as simple as that.

Yes it is.

Politicians want votes, and they would do anything to get votes.

Assuming the majority can't vote, they'll overthrow the government eventually.

There are many times constitutional rights that make it impossible (at least in theory) for many countries to favour one religion over another. Welcome to the world of secular states and republics.

There are many Constitutions in many countries being violated right now.

Why?

Because the majority allows and/or wills it to.

[Djûn]

There are many Constitutions in many countries being violated right now.

Why?

Because the majority allows and/or wills it to.

Sources, please.

[Ragabash]

Yes it is.

Politicians want votes, and they would do anything to get votes.

Assuming the majority can't vote, they'll overthrow the government eventually.

I answered just question, are there countries where constitution itself is unchangeable; and there are those countries like U.S.A for an example.

It has nothing to do with who vote what and when. That is completely another matter.

There are many Constitutions in many countries being violated right now.

Why?

Because the majority allows and/or wills it to.

Yes, and it doesn't make it anymore right, or lawful. As I said, in theory, there are many states where the constitution guarantees secular system within the state; how it's being practiced in each country is whole another matter.

Lets take closer look to U.S.A and my home country for an example:

U.S.A is truly secular state only according to its constitution, but not in practice; where as Finland for an example, still maintains state religion but is secular to the every bit of heart. It's just a matter of time when that tradition is finally lifted here, and the sooner the better.

The fact is, that religious people in many western countries should finally realize that they live now in secular societies; where state is not allowed to meddle with religious matters. If you want to change this, you should try to change the legistation, instead of trying to make it all acceptable because you care certain laws just as long as it goes in line with your ideologies.

Would you be alright with U.S.A becaming Muslim country by adopting Islam as its state religion?

[Alkarin]

in the democratic world, religion and the government have no business with each other. but in the successful totalitarian state, they are inseperable.

i disagree. in theory yes seperation of church and state makes sense in a democracy but look at america right now. most of their voters are devoutly religious and to be a successful politician you have to be a proclaimed christian (whether you are or not) its hard to have seperation of state and church in highly religious countries (all)

[Djûn]

i disagree. in theory yes seperation of church and state makes sense in a democracy but look at america right now. most of their voters are devoutly religious and to be a successful politician you have to be a proclaimed christian (whether you are or not) its hard to have seperation of state and church in highly religious countries (all)

I agree with this entirely. Not only are the voters religious, but so too are the politicians. Regardless of how unbiased they may try to act, they will still be influenced by the values they were taught as a Christian, whatever they may be.

[Dayman]

I agree with this entirely. Not only are the voters religious, but so too are the politicians. Regardless of how unbiased they may try to act, they will still be influenced by the values they were taught as a Christian, whatever they may be.

That's different from being required legally to be a Christian.

Those are two different things.

[Djûn]

That's different from being required legally to be a Christian.

Those are two different things.

Indeed they are, that I will not argue, but that was not the point to which I was agreeing. The religion of the majority will seep through into the draughtsman eventually and it is here where Church and the State become rather inseparable.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

One could say the exact opposite and it would be right, too.

[Ragabash]

One could say the exact opposite and it would be right, too.

I really don't see how it would benefit the people should democratical system abandon secularity, either you are a believer or not. It just guarantees no religion will gain more important status than the other inside the system. :hmmm:

[Nietzsche]

One could say the exact opposite and it would be right, too.

Excellent comment sir.

I tire of the incessant ramblings of church and state. In the end atheists arm themselves with their bigotry while believers hide in ramparts.

OP: Visit DC and wander over to the Jefferson Memorial. You may learn something.

The lack of historical education in the USA is appalling.