How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

[SigniferOne]

Equites Picentes don't have any penalties vs. elephants and camels.

[SigniferOne]

Something else I had a question about:

I understand Aper's theory of stats pretty well, but am pretty rusty on how it is applied to actual units. I'm having a hard time seeing why Principes stats are so much higher than the similarly armed Ensiferi of other nations (e.g. Ensiferi Sabini).

Here are the Ensiferi Sabini stats:
Melee: 12
Missile: 9
Charge: 6

Defense (total): 14


And here are the Principes:
Melee: 14
Missile: 16
Charge: 14

Defense (total): 16

Could somebody run through the stats with me and show why Principes stats are so much higher (though the two are equipped basically the same)?



PS. Aper your idea of using secondary hps is simply superb for balancing autoresolve battles, I tested it.

[Hister]

Equites Picentes don't have any penalties vs. elephants and camels.

None of the equites has mount_effect line! I haven't added it due to the fact we don't have any elephants or camels in the mod but if in the future elephants will be added please do add the line.


Signifer, Ensiferi Sabini have stat_mental = 12 while Principes Romani have 16. This value effects all the other stats. Reffer to the attached file for guidance.
To make things easier I'll review the two units and explain you why such values are given.

First of, Principes belong to elite class. They have heavy pilum and since they belong to an elite class attack value of this weapon is 16 (reffer to attached file).
The attack value of their secondary weapon (gladius) is calculated based on this formula:
MELEE ATTACK: (Attack Mod + Morale)/2
Attack Mod of gladium (short sword) is 12.

So (12+16)/2 = 14


Roman (hastati, principes) charge value is calculated by this formula:

Edit. Due to a very strange forum bug I had to post the rest of the text in new post since full etxt never appeared in this post!

[Hister]

MELEE ATTACK x1 CHARGE MOD (so basically the melee attack value is the same as charge value to simulate the high potential of gladius)
14 X1 = 14

Aper's model has fixed armor values (bronze shileds etc.) and varying defensive skill values (parrying ability etc.).

Overall defense value of Principes is calculated like this:

Defense Value = 1/2 Morale Value --> so basic defense value for Principes is 8 (the better the unit the higher the defense skill)

Armor value of principes:

- greaves +1 ARM each =>2 (they have two grieves)

- metal helmet with cheekpieces +3 ARM => 3

- bronze squared +1 ARM=> 1

- Scutum +5 SHI ; -3 DEF ; -1 STA (stands for stamina)


Summarum: 6 points for armor + 5 points for defensive skill + 5 points for shield = 16
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ensiferi sabini belong to superior class. They have medium javelin and since they belong to a superior class attack value of this weapon is 9 (reffer to attached file).
The attack value of their secondary weapon (short sword) is calculated based on this formula:

MELEE ATTACK: (Attack Mod + Morale)/2

Attack Mod of short sword is 12.

So (12+12)/2 = 12


Charge value is calculated by this formula:
MELEE ATTACK x0.5 CHARGE MOD
12 X0.5 = 6

Overall defense value of Ensiferi is calculated like this:

Defense Value = 1/2 Morale Value --> so basic defense value for them is 6 (the better the unit the higher the defense skill)

Armor value of ensiferi

- greaves +1 ARM each =>2 (they have two grieves)

- metal helmet without cheekpieces +2 ARM => 2

- large belt +1 DEF(stands for defense value) => so +1 to basic defense value = 7

- metal breast plate +1 DEF=> so another +1 to basic defense value = 8

- Scutum +5 SHI ; -3 DEF ; -1 STA (stands for stamina)


Summarum: 4 points for armor + 5 points for defensive skill + 5 points for shield = 14

Aper your idea of using secondary hps is simply superb for balancing autoresolve battles, I tested it.

Heh, I told you!!!

[Aper]

Guys, you are too much kind with this humble halfling mass-murderer!
I learned about the sec HP tweak on the amazing Aradan's EDU guide, it's not my work!

I say it again, if Principes are too much strong, nerf the morale: according to the model, many other stats will be nerfed too, and balance achieved (hopefully)

[Hister]

Definitely nice to see you guys pop here again with interesting discussions.

[Aper]

@ DaVinci
I was not criticizing you
Simply when people speak of discipline as a main attribute of the roman army I like to put things in their historical perspective: ancient idea of discipline was quite different than ours...
Probably when the average TWC dweller read "The Roman army was very disciplined" he thinks something like modern military parades, or 18-19 century armies, and this is simply a misconception... legionaries were disciplined for sure, but only in comparison with the standards of their times!

I think people like us who know this ancient stuff quite well should be very careful in avoiding to feed the myths of "McHistory" and eventually try to demolish them every time is possible, I hate pop-theories like the "stirrups that made the Knight" and similars.

[Fixiwee]

Alright folks, I gotta question. Normaly I would read through the entire thread to get the picture, but I'm a bit out of time and I wanna spent it with the game and writing my AAR. It read that the EDU is out of date with the new version of PI. I'm too busy to mess with them myself... Anyone willing to upload an EDU? Pretty please?

edit: Oh snap. I just saw Apers txt attachment. I'll add that to my EDU myself, duh. I don't mind if the units are a bit unbalanced. Gotta work on with the AAR or I'll never complete it.

[Hister]

Fixiwee, check the latest work by Romeu - you have two versions available (1HP and 2HP version):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...69#post5407569

[Hister]

I did some additional testing with Romeu's 1HP EDU and discovered ferentarii units are too powerful and can often win over much better spearmen units which is not good at all. The main reason for this unbalanced situation is that Romeu gave all land units +5 defense skill while it would be balanced if he would give them exponential defense skill. By this I mean that he should give to all units +50% or +100% of their original defense skill. Lancearii Umbri for example originally have 3 defense skill. By applying 100% they would have 6 defense skill. By doing so you maintain the original balance between the units and results will be the same as in original but with prolonged fighting.

Please Romeu fix this for me, it's urgent!

[Romeu]

OK hister you sugest to increase 50% or 100% the defense skill?

[Hister]

Maybe 70% would be the best - not sure...

[Romeu]

Pls test this i'm only increase defense skill +2 to all misile infantry, and all other infantary +5 and cavalary stay +5.

[Romeu]

This is my second EDU all vanilla defense skill increase in 75%.

[Mediteran]

i was just wondering, does changing the edu work with save games? i am really having fun in my current campaign, so i wouldnt want to mess it up

[Hister]

i was just wondering, does changing the edu work with save games? i am really having fun in my current campaign, so i wouldnt want to mess it up

Nope, it doesn't mess your save games!

[Hister]

Romeu - holy crap that was quick! A bow to you...

My girlfriend demands that I go to bad so I can't test this LOL. Will try it as a first thing to do tomorrow! Hopefully the delay can stay as it is so that it won't be also needed to make a exponential adaptation of weapon delays like you did for defense. We'll see - good night.

[Hister]

...She fall asleep an so I managed to sneak up with some testing battles Now that's waaay better! I tested the 2nd 75% skill EDU. I decided to raise the number of certain spearmen from 40 to 60 to balance things better. See attached file. I would still need to do some tests with certain units number but's it's getting very late here so it's postponed for tomorrow.

Romeu - what do you say of exponentially raising the delay by 100%(?) instead of general +15? Maybe rather by 80% if values would be too high?

I am considering to give Gallic/Ligurian long sword units a bit higher charge to compensate for their relative weakness and to simulate better their impetuous powerful frontal charge. +4 to base charge would do I think. Any thoughts on this? Can someone do tests for me regarding this? If not I'll test this tomorrow to see what charge vales will make a difference to simulate powerful frontal Gallic longsword charges.

While we are at it please set stat_charge_dist to 9 for all hoplites units and apply +100% of the current charge value to them --> example: if it is 11 make it be 22 --> all this to simulate hoplites better according to Athenogoras's preposition. I did tests on this and it came out fine.

Any ideas what other units would need to have their charge distance lowered?

Hell, if so much time was put on EDU why not make it PERFECT now!? So Romeu - do you feel like doing this?

[Aper]

I didn't tested anything, but I if it works I support the 2HPs version of the EDU.
Why?

1) Psiloi-class units are supposed, in RL, to offer no resistance in melee, but in otherwise excellent mod like EB (ACS can confirm) they often slow even elite units like no heavy infantry can do, due to the mechanics of the EDU.
This can be fixed raising the overall killing power (tweaking attack/delay/lethality) and giving all units EXCEPT psiloi-class 2HPs.
Since my model already lead to fast battles, I think adding a point of vitality can be enough.

2) ALL missiles, in the western ancient world, were not supposed to kill many people. Their purpouse was to disorder enemy melee infantry formations and keep away enemy missiles units, that can do the same to your men.
The only way to portrait this in a satisfactory manner in RTW is to give main line infantry 2HPs, and missile infantry (that not supposed to engage in melee too) 1HP.
Ranged units initially don't cause many casualties, but consuming the first HP of the enemy give an edge to their comrades in hand-to-hand combat.
Later in the battle, it's correct that, because of tiredness(= slower reflexes, less concentration) and more open/ disordered formations, the main line infantry become more vulnerable to missiles, and melee infantry begin to fall too when targeted by ranged.

Come on guys, be honest and admit: javelins in RTW and most mods are totally useless.
So why most ancient warriors carried some in battles? With the 2HPs mod we can give them justice, because without them, both line infantry and shock cavalry are at great disadvantage: we can say that without "softening" the enemy with javs, almost no charge can be successful, and IMO this is a VERY VERY nice feature.
Obviously, to have some noticeable effect on the first HP javs must have a quite high attack value: but considering their very short range, this is hardly unbalancing.

[Mediteran]

i think that's a very good idea aper