How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

[Hister]

I only have trouble with some archers many arrows(60)

Ups, it's a typo. They should have had 30 or 25 like others. Thanx for pointing it out. Fixed.

the ap-attribute of slingers.(Perhaps reduced accuracy for slingers to reduce effect of ap).

Okey, will reduce the accuracy for slingers. Where is this done?
In descr_projectile_new file maybe?:

projectile stone

effect small_arrow_trail_set
damage 0
radius 0.1
mass 0.05
min_angle -60
max_angle 70
velocity 60
display
model data/models_missile/sling_stone.cas, max

What values do I need to change for lesser accuracy?

And although the phalanx is a rare unit its primary attack needs perhaps to be toned down

Heh, forgot to test the phalanx units.

[Athenogoras]

They should have had 30 or 25 like others. Thanx for pointing it out. Fixed.

Yeah, that sounds more reasonable. Perhaps there is also a problem with rhodians as they have 200 range and 40 ammo?

In descr_projectile_new file maybe?

Correct. Insert red values where I put them. These values are from XGM and might be to much inaccuracy for you liking. In that case tone it down perhaps to 0.15 or 0.20.(yes...smaller number equals higher accuracy).

effect_offset -1.5
damage 0
radius 0
accuracy_vs_units 0.25
accuracy_vs_buildings 0.25
affected_by_rain
min_angle -60
max_angle 60
velocity 43

[Hister]

Well, that was interesting. AI run Roman M/M campaign made it to the winter of 332 when it hit a CTD during the Ligures turn. Ligures had conquered a rebel town the turn before or so, so it may have been the revolting city with no units available CTD. Or it may have been something else entirely, -show_err didn't give a message.

Hmm, don't know where to start looking for. Maybe it's just a random CTD maybe not.

So, for the first few turns at least, it seems fairly well balanced except for the poor Bretti. I think I'd look to help them in the descr_strat rather than in the EDU, though.

We will help them via DS as you suggested - I would never give some better stats to units to balance out the campaign map!

Correct. Insert red values where I put them. These values are from XGM and might be to much inaccuracy for you liking. In that case tone it down perhaps to 0.15 or 0.20.(yes...smaller number equals higher accuracy).

Thank you very much Athenogoras! Will try those different values up but I think I'll settle with 0.20.

Perhaps there is also a problem with rhodians as they have 200 range and 40 ammo?

Ranges stay as they are for now, ammo is universally lowered to 35 for all slingers. If archers have 30 then it's logical for slingers to have more ammo.

[Hister]

Rhodians and Balearians have higher accuracy (0.15), other slingers have lesser (0.20) now:

projectile stone

effect small_arrow_trail_set
damage 0
radius 0.1
accuracy_vs_units 0.20
accuracy_vs_buildings 0.20
mass 0.05
min_angle -60
max_angle 70
velocity 60
display
model data/models_missile/sling_stone.cas, max

projectile bullet

damage 0
radius 0.1
accuracy_vs_units 0.15
accuracy_vs_buildings 0.15
min_angle -60
max_angle 70
velocity 60
display
model data/models_missile/sling_stone.cas, max

What does "effect small_arrow_trail_set" do? Does it leave projectile trail? If yes then I'll delete that entry.

What does "mass 0.05" do? Do I have to put it to bullet projectile to?

[Athenogoras]

What does "effect small_arrow_trail_set" do? Does it leave projectile trail?

No idea. Test it with your new settings. Giving rhodians and balearic the effect and the other not

What does "mass 0.05" do? Do I have to put it to bullet projectile to?

I guess it the impact the stone has on the target. A really high number( say 50.0) might throw unit up in the air. I havent tested it though. Test with same procedure as above

I also guess that if not mass is mentioned at all it should be read as 0.0

[Hister]

Thanx again.

I lowered the phalanx units primary attack value by 3.

"effect small_arrow_trail_set" does not seem to do anything but then again I disabled the projectile trails altogether.

I'll see about the mass.

Otherwise your suggested values work super! +REP to you

[Athenogoras]

"effect small_arrow_trail_set" does not seem to do anything but then again I disabled the projectile trails altogether

That is good to know. Thanks

I'll see about the mass

I will test this also

I lowered the phalanx units primary attack value by 3

I would probably lower it further. The AI seems to think very highly of the phalanx and if a unit has this attribute a superior unit(in EDU-terms) will try to flank it. I personally dont like this behaviour in heavy infantry and therefore I will give the phalanx a much lower attack(so low that hoplites will charge it) and possibly a higher lethality to counter this.

[Hister]

I would probably lower it further. The AI seems to think very highly of the phalanx and if a unit has this attribute a superior unit(in EDU-terms) will try to flank it. I personally dont like this behaviour in heavy infantry and therefore I will give the phalanx a much lower attack(so low that hoplites will charge it) and possibly a higher lethality to counter this.

Hmm, does AI consider only primary attack value of the phalanx unit or also secondary? I suppose you haven't made tests yet on how high the attack value can be before a superior foe starts to flank? Our phalanx units are regarded as the best units in game so dunno if I shall change that even more.

[Athenogoras]

Hmm, does AI consider only primary attack value of the phalanx unit or also secondary?

Only primary. But if secondary weapon has much higher attack the unit in AI-hands will not form phalanx.

I suppose you haven't made tests yet on how high the attack value can be before a superior foe starts to flank?

Did some tests. Against hoplite falisci(spelling) and all other stats equal primary attack needs to be lowered to 1. As you can see AI views phalanx pretty strong. But since secondary is 15 for phalanx this wont work in AI hands so you need to lower this too, messing up the system.

Edit: tested medium battles

[Pode]

I'm confused. Why is it a problem if the AI tries to flank a phalanx instead of charging it head on where it's strongest? Just seems smart and realistic to me, unless the presence of a phalanx in the center causes the AI to split its entire battle line trying to flank it and ignoring the other units.

[Athenogoras]

Why is it a problem if the AI tries to flank a phalanx instead of charging it head on where it's strongest?

Not a problem. Just my personal opinion on how I think an army of hoplites fought. Their strengt lies in cohesion and an ethos to fight for their city. I would consider it very cumbersome to try to flank a phalanx with a tight hopliteline and not to mention dishonourable. They fought as a line or not at all.

[Pode]

Ah, I was misreading you. Thought you were saying all infantry, not just hoplites. You're right, a hoplite line should stay together at all costs. Although when faced with a phalanx of pikes, I'd think they'd try their best to offset the line and then wheel so that their cohesive line still managed to be on the flank of the pikemen. Going head to head against the guy with the longer pointy stick never ends well.

[Pode]

So I used the -ai command switch to let my computer play a campaign out to 234 BC. The Poeni hold all the islands, the Romani hold everything else. The Veniti took the Po valley, the Italiotae took southern Italy, but Rome could get to both of them without ships.
I'd hoped to remove the command line switch, load up the autosave, and be able to take and post screenshots of the faction graphs so we could discuss balance. But no matter what console command I try, I can't get the AI to stop and let me have control. It even had the audacity to say to me "errror: ai is already disabled" when it's clearly still moving armies around in the background. And armies. Good Lord the armies. Never imagined that many stacks could exist.

[Hister]

Humh I see, thank you very much for tips, didn't know what triggers AI to flank (Aper knew though). Now I have to try and see if AI controlled phalanx units form the phalanx with new values. If not we'll reverse it to older values. Do you maybe know approximate ratio between primary and secondary value when the unit doesn't want to get in a phalanx mode?

Pode, how do you do -ai command switch? I just type "ai command" in the console? So what do you think of the outcome you experienced? I think it's okey. Bretti ofcourse need to be bolstered to last longer. Any other suggestions?

Athenogoras, how is work on your EDU for Chivalry going? Finished it already? DaVinci said some high praise about your work!

[Athenogoras]

Now I have to try and see if AI controlled phalanx units form the phalanx with new values.

Dont know for certain. In this case I would set them equal. Have been testing tonight. Will continue tomorrow.

Athenogoras, how is work on your EDU for Chivalry going? Finished it already?

Nope. Other mods drag me down

[Pode]

In the command line of the shortcut to start the program, just put -ai at the end, same as -show_err and -mod. Start a single player campaign, the background script will start up (fortunately) and the AI will play the whole game with perfect_spy on so you can watch every move. Defintiely want to hit the spacebar to speed up the animations. You can still input console commands (like toggle_fow to hide most of the map and speed things up a LOT). Thing is you'll never get control back, or I can't manage to do it, so when you've seen enough you'll have to ctrl-alt-del.
Outcome seems ok, but since I was expecting to be able to look at the graphs at the end I didn't watch it much. Just based on the number of armies I have to wonder if there's a town in all Italy with more than 400 pop.

[Hister]

Just based on the number of armies I have to wonder if there's a town in all Italy with more than 400 pop.

What do you mean by "more then 400 pop."?

Thanx for tips how to make AI do all the job. Since I didn't knew this -ai existed I was usually playing as Rhaeti and trying to hold on as long as possible - was fun he he.

Athenogoras, which mods are you also involved in? You work only on EDU? If yes then I will call you "EDU Mercenary". How much do you cost, how many turns does it take for you to be trained and what's your upkeep?

[Pode]

400 population, the minimum town size. I think the AI Romans had emptied Italy of every possible recruit. Down in the toe of Italy that was still contested, they were keeping Carthage contained with a mob of stacks so dense it was impossible for Carthage to move or for me to see. Same in the Alps where they had rebel problems.

Your way is more fun. It was tough forcing myself to go watch TV and let my PC have all the fun of playing PI

[DaVinci]

Athenogoras, which mods are you also involved in? You work only on EDU? If yes then I will call you "EDU Mercenary". How much do you cost, how many turns does it take for you to be trained and what's your upkeep?

You can try to hire him from on June, until this date he is in the service of the Chivalry kingdom, in the assumption that he has fullfilled then his contract
And btw. he is not only working on the edu file, but also ai formations and all combat related files (plus some other files).

[DaVinci]

400 population, the minimum town size. I think the AI Romans had emptied Italy of every possible recruit.

Something like that happened indeed, but rather later, and it led to unrest in the republic, as more and more slaves made the farming work, and the Roman farmers were bleeded out (a big theme of its own though*) ... one of the reasons of the Marian reforms.

*Brucellarii/FRRE could provide all details.