How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

**Aper** · March 22, 2009, 05:32 PM

Good evening sirs, before I collapse to the bed I post the first very incomplete version of the EDU and the related model (slightly changed).

I modified only the units before gallic factions.

I included both the models for ranged weapons, Hister's and mine because I didn't decided yet what is the better (and probably this lead me to do some minor mistakes in the EDU, nothing terrible

).

I'm doing gallic people right now, when I'll finish them all I'll post a new version

If you want some titanic struggles I already applied the model to the best from greece and from the north: Gaesatae and Spartiatai; I'm very satisfied by the outcome of the tests: Gaesatae maniacs will brutally rape almost everyone EXCEPT Leonydas' boys :sparta:, that should slaughter the nudists without much problem

**Hister** · January 23, 2009, 03:08 PM

I reposted this from another thread not to get lost:

Findings so far.
Unit changes to secondary weapon when it is knocked down and get up again.
Therefore the overall level of use of secondary weapon in the mod will depende on lethality I think. Low lethality(of succesful hits) will have many knock downs and many secondary weapons. High lethality will of course kill more and therefore less secondary.
Also any individual unit can of course be given higher defenceskill thereby making it less likely for enemyunit to score a hit at all.

Edit: fs_s1_gladius looks great as a secondary animation for hoplite spear. Shields close and stabbing motion with spear.

Edit2: Finished with test. It works fine and could give hoplitewarfare a temporal aspect.(break enemy soon or loose attackpower).
On walls these settings makes them fight with secondary weapon(unless you put them on guard mode and dont order an attack). This makes them less able on walls(if secondary weapon is weaker as I suggest).

P.S. I made a handy thingy for applying Aper's stats to units - working on EDU goes faster this way. I just finished Bretti.

**Aper** · March 11, 2009, 04:29 AM

I've done some minor changes to the model, if you can test them and tell me what do you think I'll appreciate greatly..
Progresses are slow but steady... lessons + exams = modding suffers...

CHANGES : nation specific changes to unit numbers, attack values of ranged weapons, stat_mental

BTW, I'm happy I'm achieving a good balance of cavalry ; I admit I've done only few tests, but Apuli bodyguards, arguably one of the strongest cavalry unit in game, if commanded correctly (charge/retreat) slaughter easily heavily armored ensiferi, but in melee the situation is exactly the opposite : my ispiration for this kind of balance was of course EB.

**Hister** · March 11, 2009, 06:56 AM

Great to hear you still have stamina for our mod!

I've done quite some new things on RTW BI PI since we last heard each other - I could have done more if Signifer wouldn't upload the new beta for M2TW PI - I've done quite some work there to so it's hard to fight 2 fronts at the same time.

I will apply attack values of ranged weapons to units I've already done and tell you how it goes. How does the new ranged weapons model perform in regards to ill defended units? Hope there isn't a machine gun effect now that values for ranged are way bigger! Have you tried new missile values against hoplites - do more hoplites die now? I'm really happy you revised the ranged model since it wasn't that good and by my opinion the only thing left that needed to be balanced. I hope this last model stays since I'm not so eager to re-do all of the units that I've done up to now.

Yes, cavalry is great! Really like it to.

For now I won't apply Ground values from M2TW PI for the sake of testing purposes. It will be done very fast when the testing phase will be complete.

Can you please send me the units that you have done up to now - it doesn't matter if this latest model hasn't been applied for them yet I just want to have them in case Italian mafia does something bad to you

LOL. No but seriously would really like to have them since many modders after 2 years and a half helping for PI did a lot of work and then disappeared without giving their work to us - they run out of steam so didn't manage to finish the project they were working on but for us it would be of great help if we would receive their products and continue on our own to finish the job.

Thanx and good luck with the exams

**Aper** · March 12, 2009, 05:38 AM

Sadly I'm sure ranged still need more balance... up to now melee seems balanced enough, so I can concentrate my efforts on the coward scum

My javs are very dangerous for unarmored foes, but saving balance, I feel that it's the way things should be... thanks to their high numbers ferentarii and lancearii are not completely slaughtered by the volleys... but sometimes happens to lancearii to be almost halved by the six volleys of ferentarii
I think this is quite realistic, but don't know how good gameplay wise...:hmmm:

Another "problem" is that ferentarii sometimes prevail in melee against lancearii because of their swords: if lancearii stands in defense with guard mode on they always win anyway... but the AI doesn't know this : I'm thinking of lowering a bit the morale (and so the stats) of my brave skirmishers

I'm quite satisfied by the performance of cavalry, but I feel they probably still need more work

The high value of hoplitic shield is still a problem against ranged, but I fear there's no other way to portrait an important element of hoplitic warfare as their greater vulnerability on the right side... and to balance the different performance of various shields.

I admit sometimes I suffer from lack of stamina/motivation, but I'm resolved to finish the work, at least the application of my model : maybe I'll leave to you the final refinement...

And don't be afraid of "mafia", I'm stealthy enough to avoid "incidents"

btw our work on that front have evolved in something really interesting (I hope : it's wise to never be too much optimistic)

**Hister** · March 12, 2009, 10:52 AM

... but sometimes happens to lancearii to be almost halved by the six volleys of ferentarii
I think this is quite realistic, but don't know how good gameplay wise...:hmmm:

Hmm, those results would be too radical/unrealistic I would say. Javelins weren't machine guns. Dunno, I think that after 6 volleys 1/3 of the averagely equiped lancearii should be dead and not more. I will apply now the new javelin stats you proposed and see what feeling I get.

The high value of hoplitic shield is still a problem against ranged, but I fear there's no other way to portrait an important element of hoplitic warfare as their greater vulnerability on the right side... and to balance the different performance of various shields.

This is also one reason why I'm having second doubts about higher javelin attack values - if higher values don't present any noticeable difference in hoplites killed by those new javelin values why bother at all to raise them? Will have to test it now to see what i get with them though to tell for sure.

Another "problem" is that ferentarii sometimes prevail in melee against lancearii because of their swords: if lancearii stands in defense with guard mode on they always win anyway... but the AI doesn't know this : I'm thinking of lowering a bit the morale (and so the stats) of my brave skirmishers

I see. Hmm, maybe we need to do the following to reduce ferentarii power in melee:

1-4 Morale = Militia : psiloi = missile infantry
5-7 Morale = Average skirmishers : ferentarii
8-11 Morale = Average melee+Better skirmishers: lanceari, spatharii, ferentarii, ferentarii equites
etc.

* Let's not forget that ferentarii are not necessarily always inferior to lancearii in melee! What do you think of the above model?
If test confirms this theory then it shall be implemented - Humh, need to rework all the units I did again - damn

I'm quite satisfied by the performance of cavalry, but I feel they probably still need more work

Can you be please more specific - why do you think so?

I admit sometimes I suffer from lack of stamina/motivation, but I'm resolved to finish the work, at least the application of my model : maybe I'll leave to you the final refinement...

You really are one of the rare assests our team ever got - many bailed out half the way.
*Please don't forget to send me what you have done up to now!

btw our work on that front have evolved in something really interesting (I hope : it's wise to never be too much optimistic)

Yeah be careful not to get carried away to soon 'cos it can be a downer - especially with such things that are traditional and deeply rooted in the society.
Can you send me the details of why it got interesting via PM - I know it's not smart to talk publicly about it LOL

**Hister** · March 12, 2009, 11:53 AM

I've applied new suggested values for ranged weapons to ferentarii bretti and lancearii umbri. I also degraded ferentarii to have 5 moral points.

First impressions:
- I see now that downgrading most of ferentarii units by one lower mental level (5-7 Morale) is a must. My new proposed mental system (above) seems to be perfect in that regard.
- New ranged values seem to be okey but it's to early to make a final judgment - I need to apply new stats to other unit types to!

My 240 ferentarii bretti threw 4 volleys of light javelins to lancearii umbri prior to melee and killed 40 of them. When the melee comenced it was obvious that in that regard ferentarii are weaker and thus lost although they had quite a lot more men at the meele contact. Lancearii umbri had to close in prior to releasing their "metallic" javelins with the range of 21 meters. They threw one volley and closed in for a melee. Can't tell yet if 10 attack for their pilums is to much or not. Have to test them against armor heavy units for what their pilum primary job is all about.

Seems balanced so far!

To be continued...

**Hister** · March 12, 2009, 12:50 PM

I tested ferentarii bretti against hoplites umbri (reinforced linothorax). No hoplite died of a bretti javelin. In melee 7 hoplites died and only 50 ferentarii were left before they broke.That's kind'a okey - realistic.

Let's see now how havier javelins perform against hoplites:

lancearii umbri with heaviest metallic javelins managed to kill only 1 hoplite within one volley. That's not good and needs to be improved! Overall they killed 12 hoplites before they broked.
What if we raise considerably the attack values of heavy javelins? Since heavy javelins are own by units who have only 2 of them maybe higher attack numbers won't present that much of a problem against lightly armored units - let's just make sure units having 6 javelins (ferentarii) don't have heavy javelins but only ligher ones.

I would also revise the basic javelin model into this:

- Heavy Jav : (Morale/2) + 4, 20+(Morale) ; metallic : (Morale/2) + 5, 10+(Morale)

*cavalry throwing distance: + 10

- Light Jav : (Morale/2) + 2, 50+(Morale) ; metallic : (Morale/2) + 3, 40+(Morale)

* cavalry throwing distance: + 10

Will now make tests to see what javelin attack value is needed to soften hoplites more the javelins currently do. When the proper attack value will be found I will test that value agains ill equipped units to see if that value will be to much of a hassle for them.

**Hister** · March 12, 2009, 03:32 PM

I gave the heaviest metallic javelins attack of 20 and by doing so lancearii umbri managed to kill 15 hoplites in one volley. That's a bit to excessive so I'll lower this attack number to 15 and see how it goes but first I'll try current value of 20 against ill equipped ferentarii bretti.

The results show that a value of 20 is to excessive.

Results for the value of 15.
- lancearii umbri manage to kill from 4 (hoplites defending) to 11 (hoplites attacking) hoplites with one voley.
- lancearii umbri manage to kill 22 lancearii umbri with one voley.
- lancearii umbri manage to kill 23 ensiferi bretti with one voley.
- lancearii umbri manage to kill 43 ferentarii bretti with one voley.

These are pretty realistic results having in mind that the haviest of javelins caused these results.

You said raising javelin attack value can affect AI behaviour - you meant by it that hoplite units will start flanking such units instead of approaching them directly? Let me know. I'll see if that is indeed what happens.
P.S. I just made a test and Hoplites don't start flanking the lancearii umbri when hoplites are attackers and lancearii defenders so that's good news.

Based on my testing I propose that formula for javelins is changed like this (also to fasten up the applying process - less calculating!):

Light Javelin
1-4 Morale = Militia : attack value of 4
5-7 Morale = Average skirmishers : attack value of 5
8-11 Morale = Average melee+Better skirmishers: attack value of 6
12-15 Morale = Superior : attack value of 7
16-18 Morale = Elite : attack value of 8
*Range: 50+(Morale)
*Cavalry throwing distance: + 10

Light Metallic Javelin 1-4 Morale = Militia : attack value of 5
5-7 Morale = Average skirmishers : attack value of 6
8-11 Morale = Average melee+Better skirmishers: attack value of 7
12-15 Morale = Superior : attack value of 8
16-18 Morale = Elite : attack value of 9
*Range: 40+(Morale)
*Cavalry throwing distance: + 10

Heavy Javelin
8-11 Morale = Average melee+Better skirmishers: attack value of 10
12-15 Morale = Superior : attack value of 11
16-18 Morale = Elite : attack value of 12
19-20 Morale = Heroic : attack value of 13
*Range: 20+(Morale)
*Cavalry throwing distance: + 5

Heavy Metallic Javelin
8-11 Morale = Average melee+Better skirmishers: attack value of 14
12-15 Morale = Superior : attack value of 15
16-18 Morale = Elite : attack value of 16
19-20 Morale = Heroic : attack value of 17
*Range: 15+(Morale)
*Cavalry throwing distance: + 5

I noticed that "10+(Morale)" formula for throwing distance of heaviest javelins is a bit to short regarding gameplay matters. I raised it to "15+(Morale)"!

Now we have to discuss slings and bows so that they suit nicely in the model.
My testing suggests that current model you set is just fine. Nicely balanced. Sagitarii Sardi, one of the elite archers manages to kill 2 hoplites before the contact which is realistic. Lesser archers ofcourse don't stand a chance frontally against hoplites but perform well against ill equipped units so they are worth to be trained!

Slingers on the other hand don't perform very well with current model. They managed to kill only 8 lancearii umbri and no hoplites.

I changed the model slightly and results are much better now!
- Sling : (Morale/2) + 2, 100+(5xMorale), AP *(now it's +2 instead of +1)

With this model slingers managed to kill 30 lancearii umbri and 1 hoplite. I would not raise their attack only for the purpose to be able to kill more hoplites 'cos that would make them to srong agains other non-hoplitic units!

I think this is it Aper regarding the ranged weapons. Apply my model to edu and do some tests. Maybe I've left some details that are inportant like different AI behaviour.

Let me know of your impressions.

**Aper** · March 14, 2009, 04:43 AM

wow, impressive work!

about cavalry nothing specific, the fact is that I've tested it very few times, so problems should be in order... we'll see

many thanx for your help, it seems the model is almost perfect right now, probably the next patch will finally have a working EDU!

**Hister** · March 14, 2009, 05:19 AM

No, all the thanks goes to you Aper - a bow to a brilliant EDU model constructor!

**Hister** · March 23, 2009, 06:47 AM

Excellent - thank you!

So the factions done by you in this version are Apuli, Messapi, Sabini, Umbri and Ligures right?

Which ranged weapons model do these done units have - mine or yours?

P.S. I see my model for javelins has lower attack values for them then your newest one. Did you decide to have even higher attack values based on testing results? My testing told me my values are very realistic. I need some argumentation why you decided to go with higher.

**Aper** · March 23, 2009, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Hister

So the factions done by you in this version are Apuli, Messapi, Sabini, Umbri and Ligures right?

yeah + bretti

Originally Posted by Hister

P.S. I see my model for javelins has lower attack values for them then your newest one. Did you decide to have even higher attack values based on testing results? My testing told me my values are very realistic. I need some argumentation why you decided to go with higher.

No tests, I'm only trying to reproduce your realistic results through "mathematical" formulas, that I like more that a long list of empirical values; if I don't succeed (highly probable ; I don't have time/stamina for extensive testing) I'll follow your model.

Don't remember exactly, but I fear I used both models in this weeks ; but don't worry, while adding new units I'll also check the older for bugs

If you and the lurkers can test the EDUs for me I'll appreciate it greatly. Thx

**Hister** · March 23, 2009, 12:59 PM

Yes I shall spend one more afternoon testing your new values - will let you know of the testing results.

**Hister** · March 24, 2009, 10:26 AM

Aper, please adopt this model for moral levels! Only first is different from yours:

Morale Level:

5-6 Morale = Militia : stat_mental = low, untrained (psiloi = missile infantry)

Going lower then 5 makes units quite useless in melee since they brake too fast against higher tier units.

All ferentarii must have stat_mental = low, untrained! Normal must be reserved for melee units of the average class to denounce the difference between the two unit types!
There can be also exceptions like Ferentarii Liburni who can have normal due to their fierce melee proves.

Some lancearii units can have stat_mental trained - decide yourself who those units might be.

And please adopt also this for ranged - based on testing results!:

- Wooden Bow : (Morale/2) + 2, 100+(2xMorale)

- Composite Bow : (Morale/2) + 3, 100+(4xMorale)

- Sling : (Morale/2) + 2, 100+(5xMorale), AP

Sling is also +2 because otherwise slings are quite useless.

About shield values please use this:

- small Aspis +2 SHI ; +1 DEF (PEZHETAIROI's +3 ; +0 DEF)
To denote the difference you previously suggested between the two different uses of the shield.

I have yet to test your new javelin/pila attack values and will let you know weather we stick with mine or yours. Since I'm not in the mood for this task I'll do this in the following days.

P.S.
Units that must have higher moral then their peers:

*1) Equites Campani = 16
*2) Ferentarii Marsi = 13

Add those two units amongst the heroic units:

Pedites Marsi = 19
Equites Primores Campani =19

*1) Campanian cavalry was regarded the best cavalry in Italy.
*1) Marsi were renown for their battle heroism and proves.

**Aper** · March 26, 2009, 04:12 PM

(about 1-4 morale values, well, I never tought to actually use them

)

Originally Posted by Hister

- small Aspis +2 SHI ; +1 DEF (PEZHETAIROI's +3 ; +0 DEF)
To denote the difference you previously suggested between the two different uses of the shield.

I think small aspis (or round shield) should be more protective vs. missiles, maybe I can try this or something similar

- small Aspis +3 SHI ; +0 DEF (PEZHETAIROI's +4 ; +0 DEF)

BTW, modding will be on hold for some days because I have more exams, I'll try 3 at once (I'm crazy/stupid I know

)

**Hister** · March 26, 2009, 04:17 PM

Excellent then!

**Hister** · March 27, 2009, 05:21 PM

Aper, this is my EDU so far. I fixed the old one. I haven't yet applied the new values for small aspis you suggested.

**DaVinci** · April 13, 2009, 03:28 PM

Although i'm very tensed on the resulting edu-Aper-work: If this edu project won't succeed, means won't be finished, then perhaps one day in future Athenogoras will have time for a PI edu overhaule ... but first he has to finish the combat overhaule project for ChivTW ... anyway, i can assure that he is making an awesome job.