Did the Scots ever actually have Feudal Knights?

[kannwar]

This is one part of history i am not sure about. Every faction seems to get the generic FK and DFK but i was under the impression that the heaviest cavalry Scotland ever had were some light Border Horse type units. At least during the Braveheart period (late 1200s early 1300s). Same with those Pikemen. OK the Highland Pikemen i can imagine but i never knew Scotland used those full plated tanks they call Noble Pikemen or whatever.

I wouldn't criticize the game for sacrificing historical accuracy for gameplay reasons but when playing such an in depth game as this i feel it only natural that i would become curious about the real life scenarios that inspired it.

[Platomasso]

I think you said it yourself; some sacrifices have to be made for gameplay's sake. Besides it is not unlikely that Scotland eventually would have begun using heavy plate armour.

[Dewy]

Like i always say don't watch Braveheart it is lot of BS! Well the whole of the british isle had little horses, and the scots had little to no armour so had no heavy cav. You have to remember, that the scots never took over england but you can do it in the game in the first 20 turns. So yeah they would have if they did, it just takes so comprehending which alot of people don't do

[Old_Scratch]

I might be mistaken, but I thought the lowlanders had aristocracy and knights and such. You would get some better answers were this moved to Vestigia Vetustatis though.

[Nakharar]

the scots eventualy did take over England not by war though, when Elizabeth died, James a Scot King became King of England too

[Dewy]

the scots eventualy did take over England not by war though, when Elizabeth died, James a Scot King became King of England too

Yep James the 16th of scotland became James the first of england

[The Noble Lord]

Well, lowlanders had feudal aristocracy and noble lords which adopted the tactics of the time. Some of them even wnet into Crusades and others simply practised what was the fashion of the time when it comes to the art of military warfare.
So, Scotland did have Dismounted Feudal Knights. They were not numerous but they did exist and were present in some battles. Most notably battle of Banockburn where they were together with the Robert the Bruce.

[Sascha]

I am not an expert in medieval history, but I never wondered about the armour the Scots wear in-game, because I just assumed it to be natural that they would be equipped with the gear of the respective period. The things that I found strange were the kilts (which supposedly first appear in the 16th century) and the warpaint (which supposedly was worn in ancient, not medieval times). IMHO the latter two are the items that were put into the game against better knowledge to please the crowds that expect thus after seeing Braveheart.

[Traitorfish]

In the sense that the nation was capable of fielding a force of armoured, mounted men-at-arms, then yes. The nobility of the Lowlands were, during the High Middle Ages, virtually identical to that of England, and, in fact, many of them were indeed of Anglo-Norman descent. The Lowlanders, despite what Braveheart may depict, made up the majority of the Scots population and so the Scots army, both nobles and commoners. However, what is correct is that heavy cavalry formed a relatively small part of the Scots army, mostly being used in a light cavalry role.
The reasons for this are not that heavy cavalry were not available, but that typical Scots tactics dictated it. The inferiority of Scots cavalry lead to a prefernce for fighting dismounted, emphasising pikemen and dismounted men-at-arms rather than heavy cavalry. Truth is, the average High Medieval Scots army would've been more or less indistinguishable from an English or French one, despite what modern romanticism may say, save perhaps a preference for pikes. The "Gaelic army" of the early middle ages, something more akin to a Viking warband, was a thing of the past, at least in terms of large-scale warfare.

As for pike, the Scots, along with the Swiss and Flemmish, are responsible for their popularity in late Medieval Europe. Any country that lacked quality horsemen- not uncommon in a small nation, particularly those as mountainous as Switzerland or Scotland- was likely to see the benefits of a strong-infantry force, particularly one able to combat an enemy cavalry force effectively. Perhaps Scotland did not field the full plate "Noble Pikemen" depicted in the game, but they were certainly able to field an effective, well-equipped pike-armed infantry force.

[Conquistatore]

Scotland is a hard enough faction to implement since they were rebels in the original MTW and they have a small unit roster, no gunpowder. CA had to make up history to make them playable I guess.

[kannwar]

Thanks for the info Traitorfish. England/Scotland have very interesting history. I understand more everyday why Braveheart is criticized for historical inaccuracy so much. I think it's a good movie if you can get past that one problem.

@Sascha - That piece of info on the kilts is surprising. I had thought the Kilt had always been a part of Scottish culture. Damn Hollywood.

[Muagan_ra]

Scotland had a feudal system like any other European nation. The presense of Scottish clans obviously complicated matters, but Feudal Knights as an approximation, or a vaguely accurate grey area still seem appropriate. It is ironic, though, that the Scotish Feudal system was more of an extention of that in England than a purely Scottish system.

[Viking Prince]

If the Feudal knights were limited to historic levels, no one would play the game. Those who revel in sending out 1200 French knights to death and replacing with 1200 more as they charge relentlessly into Central Europe are simply a part of a great game.

As abuddy of mine claims -- this is really Risk with more chrome. I love chrome!

[DeMolay]

They had some , but probably in little numbers in my opinion , cause even the English had to get their horses from the continent and most of their army was on foot , the English had not many cavalry units in their armies ( their nobility was mostly from Normands descent so they still used it but not in great numbers like some other continental kingdoms ) , during first half of the 100 years war for instance , their army was professional and mostly on foot , it is their Allies , the Burgundians and Girondins (around Bordeaux) that used cavalry units extensively

The French (most populous country at the time , feudal system , lots of nobles and a strong tradition of heavy cavalry from Charlemagne , Normands etc ) like the Germans (well , the multiple Germanic states ) and Polish were the western european "faction" that used heavy cavalry the most during the middle age (Spaniards also had a fine cavalry in the late period)

A Scottish friend once told me that William Wallace was actually a noble speaking latin and french fluently and fought the English with mounted knights and not with pikes as in the Mel Gibson movie , i don't know if it's correct though , but IMO , the Scots had (if they wanted ) access to these units , but probably did not used them extensively because of the cost and relative rarity of good horses in Britain IMHO

[Traitorfish]

A Scottish friend once told me that William Wallace was actually a noble speaking latin and french fluently and fought the English with mounted knights and not with pikes as in the Mel Gibson movie , i don't know if it's correct though , but IMO , the Scots had (if they wanted ) access to these units , but probably did not used them extensively because of the cost and relative rarity of good horses in Britain IMHO

It's correct. Wallace was a minor Normano-Scots who held lands in the Lowlands, not the son of a Highland clan chief, as Braveheart depicted. He would've spoken Norman French as well as Gaelic and Scots, perhaps as a first language. Gaelic was the language of the Highland nobles and Scots a dialect form of Middle English, so, as in England, the Normanised Scottish nobility of the Lowlands would probably prefer the more "civilised" language of their cousins to the South.

The use of pikes is accurate, however, Braveheart's depiction is not. They show a Highland mob, who resemble a collision between a Celtic warband and a metal festival, wielding sharpened poles which they gleefully abandon once the enemy cavalry have been seen off, while in fact they represented a well-disciplined, well-equipped force of proressional soldiers who came to form the backbone of the Scottish army. Heavy cavalry, while available to the Scots, were not common compared to the English and French armies of the time, due, as you said, to the rarity and cost of good warhorses in Scotland. Scottish men-at-arms of the High Middle Ages were more likely to fight on foot, inspiring the adoption of similar tactics by many of the English and French knights of the later Hundred Years War.

[The Noble Lord]

The use of pikes is accurate, however, Braveheart's depiction is not.

That's true because first battle was at the Sterling bridge and they did not use the pikes there.

[O'Hea]

Yup. Pikemen were an institution in Scotland, and they were as organized and professional as any other medieval infantry.

More on the subject of the game, I personally always thought they should have access to some kind of Chivalric-quality Knight, but that the price should be higher to represent their relative scarcity. The Scots didn't lack the technology to field heavy cavalry, they just lacked the resources to do it in very large numbers. I also don't see any reason why they shouldn't have access to, say, crossbows, which may or may not have become popular there but were definitely within their means.

[Owain Glyndŵr]

They also need gunpowder. The famous "Highland Charge" involved soldiers firing pistols before advancing into melee combat with basket-hilted claymores.

[Platomasso]

I thin the great unit add-on mod adds these to the scots. I am currently thinking of installing this mod but I'm affraid it will make the factions more generic (for instance england gets pikes aswell). I am an avid fan of Scotland as a faction because of their uniqueness. Does anybody have any experience with this mod?

[Leonidas_I]

I heard bad things about it sadly.