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Thread: Deus lo Vult: Battlefield Balanced v4.36 <25/01/15>

  1. #101

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Hello Taiji,

    using both of your DLV minimods, and i must say the battles are much more interresting now; i really like this slow battle pace, now there is time and room on the battlefield for tactical decisions.
    not just andvancing, than the big clash of the two or even more armies, thousands of dead bodies in just 60 seconds.

    I always liked DLV in the past, but was not really able to play a complete campaign because of this fast battles.

    With your modifications evrything has changed now for me, thanks a lot for your efforts. Keep up this good work.

    BTW are there any plan for the future to integrate CBUR?

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Hiya Julianus Apostata, I'm very pleased to hear that my work has had this effect for you. DLV is a great campaign experience and it's a shame to miss out on that due to the battle system.

    CBUR is very interesting to import for me but I haven't much time and some much more pressing needs. Hopefully in the next couple of months I'll be able to get that started.

    BTW you seem to have just recently got 50+ posts, you could test out your new found powers to +rep people by +repping me
    Last edited by Taiji; February 07, 2009 at 06:40 AM.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Is all that stuff fixed in the current pack, or are you still working on it?

    I don't mean to hurry you, keep up the good work!

    True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance. --- Pharaoh Akhenaten,
    mid 12th century.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Still working man, damn 2h_axe ain't working...

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Damn you're quick!

    Anyway, I noticed one thing about some of the new prices for units. Playing as Ireland, my Cliarthairi (spearmen with javelins, requires a fortress) are worse quality (in my opinion) stats-wise than the Fianadi (swordsmen with javelins) and they cost roughly 400 gold more. I just think some of the new prices don't make that much sense with the existing economy, maybe they just need some tweaking.

    True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance. --- Pharaoh Akhenaten,
    mid 12th century.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Quote Originally Posted by Taiji View Post
    Still working man, damn 2h_axe ain't working...
    Maybe this is just stupid, but I do think the 2 hand axes are working. As I said, I do not pay much attention to detail/zoomed in fighting. They have a stupid graphic glitch with stabbing (how would try to stab with an axe), but the overall result seems to work fine: they do kill much more than they die .

    In fact, mailed foot knights (2 hand axe) have proven much better than Edessan squires (mace + shield) at dealing with Saracen infantry ... much much better. Also with cavalry they seem to fair better, but I have not fought that many battles involving both counterparts (I do play campaign).

    Great work Taiji.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    No mate it's just me being unclear again, the 2h axe animations are not working vs horse at all. In the version you're playing I have replaced them all with 2h sword animations and really I suppose it's fine except that they stab people and axes shouldn't stab

    I'm glad you like that mechanic with your axemen beating your macemen at spearmen control, I'm proud of that. I'm hoping you'll also find that your macemen can fare better against heavily armored dudes than your axemen, though since it's a 2h axe they might still kill faster but will also die faster. Sword and axe light and heavy infantry are great for killing spears and the maces are great for killing armored. BTW the poleaxe or warhammer that dismounted english knights amongst others use is classed as a mace and is the most powerful kind.

    Thanks for the praise mate

    EDIT:

    I've tried overwriting our animations folder and descr_skeleton.txt with Point Blank's latest stuff and I'm very happy with the results overall.

    Cav spread is much much smaller and with our high mass, slim horses and ap lances penetration and flow seems to me to be better than in RRRC.

    Our spearmen are finally behaving for the most part, which is very nice.

    With a little modification of .modeldb I can see that 2h axe is working fine against cav but we could do with a new animation for the attack as they seem to be stabbing the horses with the blunt top of the axe.

    Also 2h axe is still using that 2h sword stabbing fatality, which I am sure I can change if PB lets me have his source animations.

    Halberds have had anims swapped for pikes but it doesn't work very well for me, they don't look right at all as they jump from halberd stance with the point raised to pike stance with it level. I can see PB's done some good work with the secondary anims but I am certain halberds are not used in this way as I've pointed out before. It would be nice to have some chopping moves put in to the primary halberd set but I think this might be impossible. It might be possible to remove all the 2h sword animations I can't stand from the secondary anims, so we only have stabbing and chopping moves - I am very keen to try this.

    Point Blank tells me that there are new animations which help adjust the speed of archers so we can have them vary rate of fire with training level.

    Also he mentions that he's found a way to make all gunmen fire at once without using fire_by_rank, which is awesome!

    I've seen recently that he has pavise units actually using their pavises which is very exciting but I'm not sure what it will take to implement.

    Lots of exciting stuff assuming I can get his source animations and permission.
    Last edited by Taiji; February 07, 2009 at 09:18 AM.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    hi!

    reporting to duty sir!


    first of all, comments on the above post:

    -new axe anims = better!. but if you found a way to make them hit horses, then why not use old animations for axes?

    -about the halbers, when pikes walk and have enemies in front, they do a quite nice looking animation, lowering their pikes as if they were trying to hammer the heads of those ahead.
    but it is probably a glitch of them trying to ready the weapon just to aim the sky again..

    i think halberds should be able to have those fatalities like "you are in the floor, i have big axe, eat it!", but they would be cooler if able to chop heads 2 metters in front of them /as per a wild far swing/ and also be able to ready themselves against a cav charge.

    is there a chance to use spear animation but without shield, or use light spear anim, maybe jav? i dont know if they all use same anim really.
    now that you know how to control which animation plays, can you give them a mix of animations? like a spear without the fatality and the fatality of an axemen?


    in order to use the pavise, you should try giving for secondary animation the anim of any other troop with shield in the back as secondary.. is that posible?


    -----------------------



    lets test.
    (edited a few times)

    -feudal knights (cav) beat both heavy armored swords and hammers. now thats perfect.
    -feudal knights (cav) is defeated by spears (templar or armored sergeants )
    -2hswords are defeated by 2hmace.. by a bigger margin than i hoped for.
    -DFK beat spears by a small margin. too small.



    conclussions:
    -you seem to have it all FAR BETTER than any other time. havent checked all combos yet, but the system looks more solid than ever.
    still some adjustments may be necessary in order for the player to not feel a bit cheated, but its small tweaking time now.
    i had hoped to write this for... a long time.






    those tweaks i can recommend are:


    -make spear less powerfull. keep in mind everything said from now on includes a "just a bit!".
    this way they wont be fighting against sword so well.

    run this fight until you achieve this percentages, and you will be absolutely approved (by me at least lol):
    dismounted feudal knights (chargin, guard mode off)
    vs
    armoured spearmen (chargin, guard mode off)

    both have same level of armor upgrade at basic level.
    results should output a win of the knight by a 2 to 1 kills.
    (it should end in 75% to 35%, then spears root)


    you can also run this test succesfully facing seargent swordsmen vs sergeant spearmen
    (and then sergeant spearmen vs mounted sergeants) result % should be the same as the tests here.
    note: if you want sergeant swordsmen to be a step ahead of spears i dont really mind, but then they should stop being sergeants and come to be just "swordsmen", remember, sergeant derives from servant)


    ------------------------


    once you got that, you test
    mailed knights(cav with ap but short lances if i remember correctly) (chargin, guard mode off)
    vs
    armoured spearmen (holding position, guard mode on)

    until that battle goes in favour of the spears in a 3 to 1 messure. same as before, cavs should root after getting about 75% killed against 25% of the spears. btw you are right now at about 80% to 15% so you are really CLOSE
    try to run this battle this way: put your spears 4 in front, one as general behind. set them to deffend. wait. 1 min. after collision let them out of guard mode. thats all you need to touch.

    extra: if using schiltrom formation, this should end in a 4:1 result favouring spears, maybe more


    --------------------------------

    once you have perfected spears, time to go to the 2hswords issue.
    this guys should never beat a mace unit, but they certainly need to be a little tougher.

    run this test:
    D. gothic knights (chargin, guard mode off)
    vs
    D. english knights (chargin, guard mode off)
    (OR d. noble knights on france with 1 upgrade, this is easier because france is set to be the AI already and you wont have to change it every time)

    this battle should be ended with a 3:2 win to the maces. right now it ends with a 2:1.
    i recommend just giving a little extra speed to the 2hswords. that should fix it.

    ----------------------------------


    in all cases, dont give any order except the stated, but if you can use the horn use it. run the melees turning sides if you want, but the against cav test wont work because AI will come for you or use schiltrom formation. (and if you charge them while doing so they will be decimated probably)

    test it at spanish plain map.





    btw...


    good work pal!!!



    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Hey buddy, I really appreciate the effort you've gone to with that feedback. I have a bit of a headache atm and can't really do a reply justice.

    I want to know though. Were you using PB's animations?

    It will affect spearmen a lot and might change your judgement a bit.

    Thanks again Ivanhoex, as ever your feedback is outstanding

  10. #110

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    not using his anims yet

    anyway, if with those anims spears give the stated results then they are perfect, if not they may be fixed.. not big change there =)

    but try not to give us files that wont work unless something!
    first be sure we can use those animations without worry, then publish a battle ai according to them, else we all will be in trouble
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Spears were getting a lot of kills from backstabbing with the old animations they were also dying a lot faster (the same way they were killing).

    With spears properly holding ground and pushing forward just a little they last a long time even vs 2h swords, which is ideal.

    How they fare in terms of kill rates varies a bit. DFK definately eat armored sergeants for breakfast but it takes a little time and even longer if the spearmen has friends on it's flanks.

    I tested 250 lancers vs 1000 militia pikes. Lancers wiped the floor with them. Very happy about that

    Mil pikes vs feudal knights, the knights fare very badly front on but can kill an entire unit in one stroke with a rear charge.

    It always annoyed me how pikes used to be able to kill a whole unit of cavalry without seeming to budge or even move but now the cav will break through. A militia pike unit is probably going to lose around 30-50 men now when taking a feudal knight charge. They stand very little chance versus armored horses. Of course swiss pikes are another matter

    Halberds have in the past been my highest priority unit due to the injustice done to them by M2TW and so many mods but I'm really unhappy with PB's animations for them. I can see what he's doing and I like it but I really don't want it compared to what I have in mind. I'm praying for someone to explain to me how to rebuild the animation files, I'm really happy with fixing so many problems, big problems, by just using PB's excellent animations but I can't stand not being able to control exactly what I am getting and thus giving to you

    The choice with halberd anims offered by PB's stuff is pike movements or remixed 2h sword movements. You might think that this was what we had before but when you see halberds using pike animations you will understand. As for the 2h sword stuff... I don't mind the 2h sword and axe guys doing all this comic book taunting (all the bloody time) but sticking your halberd in your mates head looks wrong to me I'd love to make some new animation remix of the 2h axe animations with a bit of 2h sword to get halberds where I want them (yes, with the chopping the guy on the floor fatality ). No sweeping from left to right and no taunting, just stabbing and chopping. I also want to remove that animation which causes a swordsman to shake his head as if trying to shake off a concussion when actually he has just been stabbed. If he's just been concussed he should have been hit in the head, the game uses that animation badly and I think it's time to confiscate it.

    PB's also keen to fix the issue with the 2h axe move vs horse being a stabbing move, a nice high swing like the 2h sword sometimes do would do well there.

    Damn I'm desperate to be able to do stuff with anims. I better change the subject.

    OK, I think the sort of ratios you mention are about right and I'm very pleased you can see the progress, you can imagine how pleased I was watching battles after this recent change (i was jumping up and down shouting "YES!!!!") When I'm trying really hard to do something, sometimes I can think I've managed it when I haven't, it's great to hear from you that my changes are going in the direction we think it should

    I kinda feel like installing PB's animations has caused another big change and in many places I'm happy but I need to see more. Might have to revise a lot... not really sure at the moment, it's kinda like the map has changed slightly and it's hard to be certain that everything is still where it was. There may be some surprises in there.

    I've been chatting to PB a bit lately and he's suggested I use his anims but I don't feel like I have his full permission, I need to clarify that with him.
    Last edited by Taiji; February 10, 2009 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #112
    hotcobbler's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    As far as the pikes vs cavalry, from a purely historical perspective, if approaching head on not even the best trained cavalry would charge onto a wall of spears. Horses just won't do that.

    True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance. --- Pharaoh Akhenaten,
    mid 12th century.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Unfortunately I think there's no way to model that. I'm glad you pointed it out though, I missed a couple of pike units causing fear to horses.... including swiss pikes, much to my embarassment

    I think since the game will allow it we have to model what will happen when it is done, I think even with the pike braced against the floor and foot the chances of receiving a serious injury would be high for the pikeman. Maybe sometimes the energy would be dispersed into the ground but I think it's more likely that pikes would be shattered and men killed. When it comes to armored horses the chance of the pikemen being injured rises by a lot I would imagine.

    I don't know when the practise of making horses wear blinkers to blind them of potential danger became popular in the west, I suspect it was around gunpowder times.

    Well anyway, regardless of history, it's important we have good gameplay mechanics. Pikemen invulnerable to cav charge = boring. It looks great when horses crash into pikes and if we make them invulnerable to cav charge it will affect the AI way more than the player. I'm confident that on the whole it's the right thing to do.
    Last edited by Taiji; February 08, 2009 at 06:57 AM.

  14. #114
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    ---
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; June 09, 2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Because Taiji will edit my posts, if I disagree with his view.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  15. #115
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Hiya Blackleaf,

    No, certainly not a known issue! Could it be that you're hitting max units? (click the advice button when on the recruitment screen in a settlement) At least I think that's what happens when you hit max units, though I'm not certain as I've only ever hit max units ... once!

    At least I can assure you that neither my BB nor Lusted's AI is capable of causing this as far as I know.

  16. #116

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    man, you made a fantastic job.

    i m playing France atm, and with actual DLV version it is nearly impossible : upkeep troop kills you + everyone is rushing you.
    with you work, upkeep is easy and i love to see the new troops cost (2300$ for mailed knight for exemple). this way it is easiest to control economy (to avoid negative traits due to tresury > 50 000 $ and the weak upkeep cost allows me to put full stack in my cities and castle which makes ennemies to think twice before attacking me.

    concerning gameplay, it is far better than any mod i ever play since i began total series in 2003. the balance is well tought. Cavalry is now what it deserves to be : a huge expensive option which is the secret weapon on the battlefield to use with caution (retrain costs is amazing).
    Charges are now epics and the impact against infantries is frightening. giving them AP was a good choice and i like how you manages charges bonus on cavalries depending on what type of lance they use.

    i was afraid that raising armors around 35-40 for most units could nerf archer too far. once again you manages well to give archers decisive role without making them too much powerful. Before your patch, scots guard used to decimate any elite heavy infantry but now the loss in custom battle test is only around 40% at free distance firing.

    mate, you made good job!

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 01/02/09

    Thanks TWMadman, that's really nice to hear

    Although I must credit Harry on the costs as I ripped most of them straight out of DLV Europa, which I have to recommend if you haven't tried it - it has a great battle system.

    Thanks again though, mate

    edit: Making some awesome progress messing with the order of animations. Going to make some new classes so that we can have different levels of troops using different animations. Going to bring back my favorite axe anim ever (the flipping one ) and make a new remix of anims for halberds which is going to be awesome, able to brace and spearwall but also able to fight with plenty of chops some good stabs and some fatalities.

    Obviously I've got to make new animation sets for warhammers and poleaxes.

    Next will be scimitars that don't stab so much, maybe based on mace.

    I've asked PB for permission to import the way his units are using pavises, fingers crossed on that.

    I've been checking out XBAI, I like it. Not tested enough to be able to compare much but I will say that it's siege work seems the best i've played and also (this is a killer) it uses halberds in phalanx mode very well, they do not seem to be left behind by the army...

    edit: I've just made a kickass 2h axe animation remix... really awesome, I think you will like it . Next I'll make a lower level remix, so we can have woodsmen fighting in a slightly different style compared to norse axe for example.

    I'll get a couple more of these done then I'll intergrate it all and then a BB update with remixed animations and many fixes and tweaks will be born.

    Everything is fixed now - river of men, cav spread, 2h axe. I'm just too obsessed with anims and maybe too sadistic to let you have it

    edit: Damn this animation stuff is annoying the hell out of me, I'm making great progress then I make a new axe class and the unit using it does wtf it likes no matter what I tell it - infuriating. At least I have nice elite and regular axemen animations set up, it's just those damn militia grrrr

    edit: OK, I've uploaded BB1.1 but you will have to wait until I have one more permission before you download it. I didn't realise I needed more permissions when I uploaded it and my upload speed is painfully slow, I'll leave it up. Don't get me in trouble please, just wait to download until I have the final permission!

    It's a very important permission, it's the one which solves cavalry spread and it's from Chim, a hero to whom we can all be eternally grateful assuming he gives us his permission.

    edit: I'm working on halberds animation setup, I've got a great set based mainly on axe but there is a problem. I get a ctd when I try to combine the spearwall animations with 2h axe. When I do it the other way round they just do halberd anims. I wanted a phalanx with lots of chopping going on and some fatalities but so far it seems beyond me. Maybe we can phalanx for some of the less special, militia halberds and so on and keep this nice axe\halberd set for the elite - it does seem powerful so far!

    edit: I've come up with a defensive kind of halberd class, it doesn't use shuffle forward and I'm trying to get it to use defences which knock it back. Should make it so you have a unit which loses ground while killing the enemy and not losing many men. a pretty intelligent way to fight and an interesting mechanic. super defensive troops vulnerable to missile and being swamped by units but otherwise able to slow the enemy down and eventually kill them. just tested this with JHI, they took DEK to pieces losing only 50 or so men.
    Last edited by Taiji; February 10, 2009 at 06:57 PM.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 10/02/09

    so... still no permission?


    those changes...

    first, dont take me wrong: this looks as the most professional step you have taken so far.

    second... well.. now will be impossible to test your files... you are making my life extra problematic!


    now i have to check unit by unit... thats cruel of you!




    be nice and find the best-looking-ever set of animation and then use it all around with the same type of units...
    one animation per unit type... is not that bad..
    if you dont, then edu numbers will mean nothing...
    and wrongs will have to be checked in same battle fought at least 5 times...

    i am getting addicted to this ellipses... (the three thinking dots)
    but it might be that i am so sleepy (didnt sleep at all last night) and so my writing becomes sluggish as my actual words XD


    the only other option i am planning on congratulate you for adopting is to divide each type of troop into two different types.
    as you said, defensive and offensive. but you have to make that obvious! not only in the unit“s description, you might have to change the actual unit name... and that implies problems..
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 10/02/09

    No, still no response from Chim

    Yes what you say about unit descriptions is true but that's for the long haul - no point doing it at all until it's all decided and worked out. I will try to work on a guide for the player but I imagine it will be outdated quickly and I won't want to update it lol... well maybe...
    Last edited by Taiji; February 10, 2009 at 07:40 PM.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0+6.1 - 10/02/09

    So by saying cavalry spread is gone, is that also saying i dont have to use stainless steel horse animations any longer ? :p

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