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Thread: Deus lo Vult: Battlefield Balanced v4.36 <25/01/15>

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    I can appreciate what you're saying but I think availability and price should come into it.

    If you can afford the very best units and they are avaliable in sufficient numbers then you can field an unstoppable army of dismounted gothic knights.

    I am not going to try to address shortcomings in the pricing and availability of units by adjusting unit stats.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    i think that unavailability is a stabilizing factor that forces to play with lesser troops.
    but it also forces you to not use the stronger unless under extreme distress because you cannot replenish them

    i like slow pool refresh, but not unending. then i am able to refill my experienced troops and build new ones, helping me in time to get the type of army composition that i want.

    once in the field i like to be forced to think "oh god, his cav are gonna charge upon my elites and kill too much of them... unless i sacrifice this golden chevron archer unit... damn!"..
    desitions. ones that you wont have if your elites are excellent against everything.
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Nothing is excellent vs cannon or even ap bows for that matter... which is a shame

    About the bows I mean

  4. #84

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    i never can get a cannon to kill more than a good cav ^^
    for me cannons are only useful against walls lol

    ap bows in the other hand.. those are tough fellas.. in my build i gave them bad attack damage to compensate.. but it is tricky indeed.
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    I am thinking to remove the ap. Maybe to give them some more attack or find out what this 'area' attribute PB uses does...

  6. #86
    hotcobbler's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    I think the AP makes them a little TOO powerful. Testing it earlier, cav could charge directly through 3 lines of spears, losing very few and routing all 3 lines.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    that was feudal knights chargin on armored spearmen?

    anyway, its more likely too much charge bonus or mass than the ap bonus (wich is almost not notorious unless you are talking about 8 or more armor)
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  8. #88
    hotcobbler's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    I think maybe it's the mass that's doing it, which I kind of understand if it were a thin line, but 10 deep in 3 lines and it looks a little overpowered.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Hotcobbler, which spears and which knights? I'd like to see this

    Get a line of levy spearmen (about 6 should do) and postion them so that the enemy has to go through each in turn and then get a single unit of dismounted gothic knights for the ai player. watch how many units the dismounted gothics can get through, it's awesome
    Last edited by Taiji; February 02, 2009 at 07:49 PM.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    First of all, this is a great discussion we've got going here I'd love to be more involved, but I'm taking Java, HTML, Networks, and Unix. As they say in M2, "Holy Mother of God!" :laughing:

    Secondly, I've got a question for ivanhoex. Were you making a suggestion in this post or stating how the newest upgrades worked?
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...90#post4380890

    Last of all, thanks must go to Taiji for being so diligent in updating this mini-mod and taking everyone's suggestions into effect. Bravo!

    P.S. - I can't wait to try this out!

  11. #91

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    i was making suggestions.

    it was kind of an answer to taiji when he said he didnt knew how to make units to be better against light armor but still similar... and then i let myself go with some extra stuff


    all statements about newly changed factors will come from taiji, most of the yelling, complaints, annoying questions and stubborn faces... come from me =)
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    It's a pleasure Musicdemon, I hope you like it

    Ivanhoex is helping me the only way he knows how, through torture!

    lol not really. Honestly though Ivanhoex, you are a really big help - so much feedback, ideas and expertise, thankyou!

  13. #93
    Agis Tournas's Avatar ★ Modder-at-Arms ★
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    @ Taiji & ivanhoex

    I really find your work extraordinary!

    I have no such skills (so I can not judge, or have an opinion on what you are doing)
    but I admire your work and your passion for what you are doing.

    Just GREAT...

    Cheers
    Agis
    A mini-mod is never late! Nor is it ever early. It arrives precisely when I mean it to do!


    Son of Agisilaos / Grandson of jimkatalanos / Great-grandson of Garbarsardar





  14. #94
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Well, take some time to play some battles, Agistournas. Your feedback would be much appreciated of course

  15. #95
    Agis Tournas's Avatar ★ Modder-at-Arms ★
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Quote Originally Posted by Taiji View Post
    Well, take some time to play some battles, Agistournas. Your feedback would be much appreciated of course
    I can't play right now... I am working on another DLV project - thanks to some stuff that Tokus gave me. I am making the faction maps for the faction selection screen in the main menu. I believe that you - DLVers - would like them very much.
    BUT I wait - anxiously - for your work to be finilized in order to play the battles you are suggesting.
    A mini-mod is never late! Nor is it ever early. It arrives precisely when I mean it to do!


    Son of Agisilaos / Grandson of jimkatalanos / Great-grandson of Garbarsardar





  16. #96
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    It's just a suggestion but how about if we fix 2h axes vs horse not working, 'fix' cav spread, fix spearmen occasionally going crazy, fix inf charging horses often not working, add halberdeers with new animations, add gunmen that fire synchronised, and a ton of other cool stuff?

    I'm seriously considering importing Point Blank's animations, he is doing some really excellent work and has already done some of the work we need to do. I believe there is still a little cav spread possible in there but I'm not sure and to be honest losing cav spread for fixing so many others and gaining some nice things seems worth it. Maybe we can be rid of axemen stabbing people through the side once and for all, maybe we'll even be able to charge a cav unit with inf and not look on in horror as the unit spreads all across the battlefield shouting at the cav, just shouting, only to then be butchered because on the medieval battlefield shouting doesn't quite cut it.

    What do you reckon?

  17. #97

    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    it sounds great.. but until repman says that its ok with him, all your files will be absolutly not compatible with official edition (and i know how bad that can be for a hand-made mini mod with unlimited amount of details)
    Last edited by Taiji; May 26, 2009 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Removed spam

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Well I think he'd probably need to see the finnished work in order to weigh up the benefits. The battle system in current dlv 6 is, as people point out, quite exciting, things can happen scarily fast. Can this be achieved with extra animations, a reduced cavalry spread and fixed 2h handed axes? It seems highly likely to me

    I'm keen to see these new halberd animations, as you've pointed out our own are bland and as I insist the alternative is unrealistic. With new animations we might have nothing to argue about there.

    2h axe has been bugging me since I started out modding, to be able to fix that without much effort is a very attractive prospect.

    Infantry charging horses forever and cavalry spread that, though challenging, does go a little too far to seem realistic. I'm sure those 2 are related and they definately combine to present a much bigger problem than both counted seperately.

    I'm determined that what we definately won't see is a copy of SS or RC.

    I'm also looking at XBAI and the different classes it offers for units, it could help produce some more interesting distinctions between troops.

  19. #99
    PrivateJoh's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    Hi everybody,

    I do not really know whether this should go here or in Taiji’s other thread for feedback. Anyway, I can see you are getting here into a very deep and knowledgeable discussion, so I feel out of place.

    Regarding all the fixes Taiji is suggesting, I don’t know what to say. To start with, I do not really care about animations, beauty of the units or the such. I very seldom zoom in to follow the battle, so it does not bother me that units look ridiculous (as you say since I never really noticed). What I do care is that my units do their work, so that double handed axe or sword units DO kill the horses., that my sword units mince equal level spearmen, my spearmen can stand their ground against cavalry, my missiles kill but not demolish enemy units, and that my cavalry gives me a good punch against light troops or already engaged heavies.

    There are still many remaining issues with standard DLV, many of them I ascribed to the cavalry spread. It is ridiculous to see how cavalry spreads over the whole battlefield (sometimes just because a routing unit happens to be close by), crosses walls in sieges or is just overtaken by pursuing infantry (even heavy infantry). It is also rather aggravating to see how my spears spread all over the place trying to get the spreading cavalry. It is almost comic to see cavalry VS. cavalry engagements, if it were not for the aggravation it causes me.

    For all that, I think Taiji’s fixes are quite good. I should say, I play campaign and not battles, so my experience are at best limited. First off all, the cavalry spread seems to be more contained now, and I usually manage to kill 90% of the charging cavalry unit before the spread kicks in and ruins my “well planned strategy”. Ok, the 10% left is causing me a huge grief as they roam the battlefield as a blind ostrich, either routing or most likely trying to decide what to do next. At least now, 2-4 units of low level spearmen seem to be able to take on medium cavalry or a general unit (fights with the initial rebels).

    Cavalry DO punch a horse kick on light infantry, which I really like, and do a decent job at charging swords, but at the same time seem to be much more sensitive to them when the get bogged down. I also like that.

    Missiles are just fine. They do kill, but not overkill unless you use them very wisely maneuvering them all the time. At the same time, they are week at close combat, so you can rush them. As already said, they are cannon fodder against cavalry. I wish the AI would protect theirs better, but it is not that bad.

    I do advise Taiji against dropping the AP characteristic of some missile units. Crossbows and arbalesters were the beginning of the end for heavy cavalry … and heavily armoured units. If you want to tune them down to protect your heavily armoured units, increase their reload time. Heavy armoured elite units should have a counter. I advocate for crossbows before the appearance of fire arms.

    By the way, progressive fire arms is a good idea, but for my health’s sake Taiji, try to keep your modifications linked on a single post. Right now, you have to surf all through the forum to find all of them. Your work is excellent, now try to make it user friendly. I would rep you for it (as you already know), but since I rep so little I can't do it .

    And now, I will leave as this post have been long enough.

    Joh

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Battlefield Balance for DLV 6.0 - 01/02/09

    No! That wasn't long enough! Come back!!!

    No but seriously, thankyou so much for that feedback, Joh. You've given me a good idea of what I'm doing right and what I might do right in future

    I'm sorry for making 3 threads for the different minimods, I will have to combine it all at some point, you're right that it's not userfriendly.

    Please don't be intimidated by the technical level of the discussion, "cavalry sucks" or some other kind of low level feedback is also very welcome here! You certainly don't need to be as knowledgeable as Ivanhoex or myself for your feedback to mean a great deal to me.

    I really appreciate your praise, you seem to have picked up on improvements or mehanics that I'm very pleased with myself.

    Thankyou very much, Joh. If you ever have anything to add please know that it will be appreciated.

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