The Great (Jin) Wall

[Wundai]

Yes ladies and gentlemen,

Time to start a discussion on the Great Jin Wall, last progress on the model:



Hmm what I've gathered in discussions with Yelü at this time is this:

-It has to be one long piece of wall stretching across the map
-A "moat" is going to be present
-The wall in our timeframe was kind of "in-construction" since the Jin were repairing bits and pieces of the wall.
-There was talk of having some pieces of the wall used as fortresses(forts)
who can be garrisoned, and the empty pieces in between the wall to become impassable tiles were no player can go.
-Alot of Beacon Towers and Guard Houses were present on the wall.

So now for my questions then :

-Gatehouses? There must undoubtely have been some on the Great Jin wall. Any sourcephoto's?

-The "Moat" even after some Korean wall pictures I'm still not sure how it should look, Yelü told me it had to look "finished" but with finished I'd say one large ''strip of water" alongside the wall?

-Length, making a pagoda is easy since Yelü can simply modify its size when putting it ingame.
But with the great wall, it would be easier to know how long it has to be, so judging from the pic above how much lengthier?

-Mountains, Not sure if this applies here(since I'm not sure the Jin Wall was made on mountainlike terrain or flat) but my wall piece is kind of on-flat-land like it was made in my country (The Netherlands )
I could make some mountain-like models and let the wall move through the mountains like a snake

Let the discussion begin:

[Augustus Lucifer]

I think Yelu would be best equipped to answer those. My understanding of the process is that he wants different pieces that have different aspects in order to combine them and rotate/scale them. As stated it will be best represented by 1 long model, but if it needs to be 2-3 or however many breaks there were at the time, we could probably cope. The key problems which make the wall such an epic work in rigging will come in that it will need to conform to the landscape and look right when put on the map, because unlike most of the structures which are just for show, it will actually function like the wall.

All I can say with a certainty is that it is very likely to go over hills and so will have incline/decline elements, as well as being fairly curved in nature eventually, as if you've seen pics of the great wall even just from satellite images it is anything but straight. How this will be achieved is not my court, but from what I've been told it will be possible in pieces with a lot of rigging work and tweaking.

Just don't consider it something to knock out of the park, because I'm sure it will be a work in progress for a while and honestly expect it to be.

The forts thing is my area, and that will be for a much later date. What can be done is the placement of invisible forts, achieved through using our unused culture with an invisible fort model, in order to make it look like there are forts *on* the wall, at certain points. The problem with this before trying to implement it is the battle map, where it would still look like a fort if you assaulted it. In this regard we will want to hold off on this until we can define custom battle areas and a custom battle map fort to represent an assault on the wall, which will be a while. Don't worry about it though, as besides the battle map part the rest works based on the model as opposed to needing consideration in its production.

[S-te-Fan]

Uh... is this for the battle or strat map?

[Yelü Dashi]

@stefan it's for the strat map.

@Wundai: can you post a wireframe model up ? Might help to figure out how easy it would be manipulate. Don't worry about producing a necessarily 'long' just one stretch with enough variation (a few towers and guard post etc. Perhaps forget the moat idea for now, or create a separate model that can 'fit' at different points, its only an extra that we could add in.

Here is the best map I can find locating the Wall during our period from a German website, the Jin wall indicated by the red line. The terrain it protects is mainly steppe, so their won't be huge mountain ranges to bypass. As you can see its not a single continous line, but dashed, again not sure whether thats representative of an incomplete wall or not:



Also from the website:

After the Jin Dynasty conquered whole northern China, they started to erect a long fortification wall along their northern frontier from Qiqihar 齊齊哈爾/Heilongjiang to Baotou/Inner Mongolia. The technology of this wall is very different to the old ones: it was covered with hewn stones, crowned with battlements and parapets, and protected with moats. But even these technologically advanced fortifications were unable to protect China from the Mongols.

More background info:

Jin dynasty walls (1115–1234)
In the bleak and windswept landscape of Inner Mongolia, the Jin dynasty mobilises a massive workforce to build thousands of kilometres of walls. The Jin Great Wall reaches further north and is more heavily fortified than earlier walls, with sophisticated battlements, parapets and moats.
.

From an Inner Mongolia tourist website:

Dynasty Great Wall (Jin Dynasty Northeast Road Border Wall Relics). There is a section of 206.15-km-long Great Wall built in Jin Dynasty in Qiqihar City, which passes through Gangnan County, Nianzishan District and Longjiang County of Qiqihar City. Jin Dynasty Great Wall was primarily built by the Nuchen people who compelled people of various nationalities in the construction in the 12 th ～ 13 th century A.D. The Great Wall started from the Nenjiang River bank of Northeast to the Great Bend of Huanghe River, which was a military fortification of more than 4000 km long. The project was divided into three routes. The Jin Dynasty Great Wall section in Qiqihar City belonged to the section of Northeast Route, which was the earliest section of Jin Dynasty Great Wall. Jin Dynasty Government decided to assign General Po Luhuo to build the Great Wall and control the border in the 5 th year of Tianfu's Reign (1121 A.D.), in order to consolidate their newly-expanded domains, defend the capital Shangjing of Jin Dynasty and continue to enlarge their victory and to prevent harries from the north. According to history, Po Luhuo made great achievements in controlling the border and was repeatedly commended and finally died at his post along the Great Wall. The main walls of the section of Jin Dynasty Great Wall in Qiqihar are high and complete. There is a horse face outside the city moat, with garrison watchtower over the moat. There is a pathway for vehicles and horses in the wall. There are protection trenches outside the wall to protect the chief wall. According to requirements, the intermittent second and third trench walls are usually built outside the chief wall to strengthen the defence function. There are garrison castles for stationing of soldiers inside the wall. Therefore, the section of Jin Dynasty Great Wall in Qiqihar City is properly designed and constructed. Moreover, because the long-term desolation and rare human traces in Yuan Dynasty, it's well persevered with a complete and magnificent status quo. Because all the Binzhou Railway and Yalin Railway, Nianbei Highway and Yalu River waterway pass through the section in Nianzishan District of Jin Dynasty Great Wall, it's the best place for visit and sight-seeing.

[Wundai]

Thanks guys,

A lot of information, and my view has been clearened(not a word, I know)
So the fortresses and moat are a later issue?
I agree, basics first.

Some summarising quotes:

"The main walls of the section of Jin Dynasty Great Wall in Qiqihar are high and complete."
-With this in mind I could make the so-called right flank(right is North and Qiqihar, left is south) of the wall be one 'long' and more complete piece, while the left is more in-construction.

Things like:
-Protection trenches
and
-2nd and 3rd Trench walls

I would suggest not doing these, I think Stefaneke tried to make the point earlier, that since it is a strat map model too many details are not necessary and I would agree to that.
Even the ladders I made now, I wonder if these will even be shown when it is such a small model on such a large map. Even the Great Wall isn't that great anymore when on the strat map

Well and furthermore the German Map really helped, I'll try to keep it with those curves when making the rest of the wall.

[Wundai]

Wireframe Model:
(need to largen it a few times to get a good look at it )

[Wundai]

And a progress update:
Tried to keep with what I saw on the German Map,
1. Think it needs more fortresses?
2. More or less gaps?

Top:


Side:

[S-te-Fan]

Looks great . Is 't niet een beetje te high poly for de strat map?. <- TOP SECRET INFO IN DUTCH!

[sud commander]

Really impressive!

[Wundai]

Thanks guys

And no I don't think so, I had that same question with some elaborate Pagoda's I made earlier and the engine seemed to handle them fine, besides I haven't completed it yet, in the end I can start deleting vertices/segments/poly's you don't see anyway when you're flying around the Strat Map

[S-te-Fan]

Like the faces on the bottom?

[Wundai]

Exactly

[Yelü Dashi]

Great stuff mate, really shaping up. I would only suggest one thing: can you make some longer, more complete pieces ? I'm not sure not what you other guys think, but I'm opting for a wall that appears as a solid piece, tho its ends are unfinished. In line with the idea that the Jin intended to extend the wall at some point. Just my two cents.

[Khorney]

impressive!

[Wundai]

@Yelü, Ok, thats fine mate, in essence I'll be removing some gaps then.

@Khorney, Thanks

[Wundai]

Heh Alex is right as usual, it does look better without all the gaps, a much more "Great" Jin Wall if I do say so myself

Any other suggestions/changes?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Khorney]

i like the bamboo scaffolding, nice touch

[Wundai]

Bamboo, Nice one, didn't even know the scaffolding was made of bamboo-material but thank you

[Khorney]

yes, they still do it today. they make it out of bamboo because the wood is able to expand and contract the the warm and humid climates where metal poles would snap, and of course it's much much cheaper

[Wundai]

Interesting nice info