Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus Agelastus/Crassus

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Falco stands up. His face appears calm, but it is only a poor disguise. His voice trembles with nervousness.

"Excuse me, but if I understand the implications of the quaestors report correctly, we may have money to pay these sailors and soldiers now, and food to feed them, but we will not have money in the future, when those soldiers and sailors still need pay and food. If I interpret the quaestors report correctly, I cannot agree to the recruitment of large bodies of men, nor to the maintaining of the fleet. The consuls will have to make do with the men they have now, because we simply cannot afford to pay for more men."

[We shall fwee...Wode]

Men, the fleet is an extravagance our state cannot support. It should be quickly and henceforth disbanded. I must however disagree with the honourable Falco on one matter. We must train more men. We will perish otherwise. I think that the first concern should be defence with the majority of our treasury put towards it. There must however be some infrastructure and economic investment. It is essential if we are to ever remove this burden of debt that we take constructive steps to reduce it's impact now. I feel that AT LEAST 20-25% of our treasury (10,000 Mnai IIRC) should be used in such an endeavour. This will still leave enough men to levy several legions (OK guys, fact = a full stack is 4 legions i.e. consular army and a half stack, 2 legions, is a praetorian army. With half of the men being allies.)

EDIT: I MISSED MY ONE THOUSANDTH POST!!!

[Snowball]

I agree with the Censor, train men!

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Falco takes a deep breath.

"Being able to train men and needing men are two different things. We do not need these men, we are perfectly able to fight with the maniples we have until our economy can support new armies.

If we recruit new armies now our economy will never build up, and we will always have a weak economy. We will have to watch every penny, and we will have to build up our economical and military infrastructure piecemeal - one new public work every decade or more - and our economy will suffer greatly every time we build anything.

If we build up our economy now we will have a strong basis on which to build a large army. We will be afford to spend large amounts of money, without having to worry much about the consequences.

What the censor proposes will be the death of the Republic, I simply cannot agree to it.

What the tribune proposes goes against everything he should be fighting for. He proposes to tear away plebes from their land or other source of income and risk their lives for our Republic when they are not even absolutely needed by their Mother City. I would have expected different from a Tribune of Plebes.

Tribune, I am curious: were your earlier words merely signs of your hypocritical flattering of the plebes, and are these your true colours? Or are you serious in both cases and are you foolish enough not to see the inherent contradiction in supporting both a needless expansion of the army and the 'protection of the plebes'?"

[Pontifex Maximus]

I propose we move the issue of the fleet to a vote, as should we decide to disband it, better sooner then later. Every second we waste is a second more for the costs of up keeping the fleet to sap our treasury.

[We shall fwee...Wode]

Agreed, as Censor (I think I'm the highest rank now the Consuls are at thefront) I will set up a vote on the matter of the fleet. However Falco, if our economy is to dive it will be harder to recruit men without the promise of pay. We should recruit them while we have the chance as we may not be able to hire more for many a year.


OOC: We will have no money for upto 10 years and we will have to defeat the Epirots, Carthaginians and then if we wish to take cities, they are usually 2/3rds stacks all silver chevrons. We will need men.

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

If we recruit men we will not have money for a lot longer than if we do not recruit them. And we will always have a problem losing men, whether with or without this handful of new men. Personally I care more for a good economy, sound strategies (thus lowering the number of battles) and sound tactics (thus lowering losses) than vainglorious expansion and careless fighting.

In that same light I applaud the Consul with his victory, he is an asset to the Romans. Bold, but not foolish and brave, but with wisdom.

ooc: I know about the economic hardships ahead, and I simply propose a different way of dealing with them.

[Snowball]

You are a fool senator, truly a fool. We are facing the possibility of our utter destruction and you are afraid too spend money!?

Not only that, your knowledge of military matter is laughable to say the least. You are so confident in our military that you think this will be easy? It will not be easy, and this kind of thinking is dangerous, very dangerous. Do not take for granted ANY advantages. To say that we do not need soldiers at this hour is preposterous.

And you doubt my integrity as Tribune? I take this as an offense to my honor senator! I have said all the time that we need to fight for Rome, that this is serious, and that we can not hold back in fear of debt!

However, that does not mean we are to care about the lands of greedy patricians, it is ROME that is at stake! It is ROME! We, the people must fight for! Rome, the city, the holy ground, the values she represents and has represented for so many years!

No senator, i do not go against what i should be fighting for! The rights of the people are not at stake here, THEIR LIVES ARE!

Marcus sits down.


I also say we should disband the fleet.

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Who is the fool now, tribune? When have I ever said that the coming years would be easy? When have I ever said that we should not fight?

Furthermore you distinguish between Rome and Patricians, as if Patricians are not Romans. As if Patricians are not the finest citizens this Republic has, as if the fate of this Republic is not intricately tied to the fate of the Patricians. To save Rome is not just to save these buildings on the banks of the Tiber. It is far more than that, it is to save an ideal, and to save lands that are ours by right of conquest, or under our protection by right of alliance.

You suggest spending plebeian lives to save Rome. How is that different from what I got criticized for by you, no less?

Tribune, it is a virtue to think before you speak and if you can't think: don't speak...

[We shall fwee...Wode]

I would ask that both of you restrain from turning an issue of economic policy into one of class struggle. We are here to debate the merits of Honourable Falco's and my own economic and military appraisals with regards to our future investments.

[Snowball]

Marcus nodded at the Censor

You are right honorable Censor, my apologies.

[We shall fwee...Wode]

I believe that unless we recruit men now we could find ourselves critically understrength. We must defeat the Epirot and all of the Italic rebels who betrayed us upon their arrival.

[Elendil of Númenor]

"I am sorry Censor, but as I see, if we recruit even more troops now, we will be paying depths for the next 5 or 10 years even after we are victorious against Phyrrus! And then we would of course quickly force through a motion to disband our legions. And as we are slowly paying back our depths, there comes an invasion from some unknown enemy. And we won't have one coin to recruit maniples.
Senators. We don't have money for more soldiers. The only thing that we can trust in now is tactical supremacy. We cannot defeat Phyrrus with men. Only with a good commander."

Celsus sat, not finishing his thoughts. They should understand, he thought.

[We shall fwee...Wode]

We cannot hope to support a strong defensive force until we reassert our Hegemony over the various Italic people who have rebelled against us. For this we need an army! Do you endeavour that our status as leaders of Italia be undermined by this houses timidity. Soldiers will be required and I'm certain the Consuls will agree.

[Winter]

Tribune Lepidus speaks,

Censor you must see reason. We cannot afford the upkeep of these troops you propose! To recruit even half a legion would send us into such paralyzing debt that we would not be able to emerge for years!

I cannot, in good conscience, support a measure that will bankrupt the Republic and throw more Plebeian farms into disuse and disrepair. Let the Consuls win the war with the troops we have now, and let us prepare our infrastructure for the end of the conflict.

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Censor,

Who are out there on the front at present? Are those not Roman soldiers? Or at least soldiers in Roman pay? Do they not fight, and admirably at that?

You act as if we have no army at all!

[Snowball]

Lepidus! i urge you to see reason!

You speak of the bankruptcy, and how we will manage!

Do you not see that we might not survive? whether we recruit more soldiers or not, we will go bankrupt, the difference is whether we have men to show for it, with which to fight with in this LONG period of no money to come! or if we have buildings to show.

Please understand that we need more men, now and in the future. Survival must come first.

Let us hear what the Consuls want to do with the treasury.

[We shall fwee...Wode]

You speak as though I am a mad-man or a fool and I would care to be treated with respect Falco. The same, which I have throughout this debate, granted to you!

I have made my views clear, if you wish to belittle them then do so in your own time. Not the senate's.

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

"No disrespect was intended, Censor. I merely wanted to point out the fact that we have an army which is commanded by able generals. To recruit men to be able to afford to lose them is to admit defeat. But I respect your opinion of course..." Falco says with a wry smile.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Marcus do you overstate the situation in the south? We have two full strength legions standing by to defend Rome and the Senate has been given no reports to indicate a major offensive by the enemy. I am completely against the spending of money to rush to recruit troops at this stage as it would only plunge us into debt we would find hard to repay.