Everything about the Hamas-Israel conflict MK II

[Pontifex Maximus]

Previous discussion may be found here.

Please stay on topic and within the Tos.

[Farnan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/...l_palestinians

Israel announces end of offensive, says they are going to stay in strip for now.

[Vince Noir]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...YdnLPvL40D0X_Q

Some 300 Human Rights Groups preparing dossiers ready to probe Israel on suspicion of war crimes.

[Zephyrus]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...YdnLPvL40D0X_Q

Some 300 Human Rights Groups preparing dossiers ready to probe Israel on suspicion of war crimes.

"THIS is THE RED CROSS INTERNATIONAL!!! RAWRAGHR!!!"

Nothing will come of it. Some lower echelon soldiers will be thrust under the meatgrinder, like in iraq, and thats as far as the responsibility chain goes.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Also, Israeli officials said that they reserved the right to attack again in the future if Hamas kept firing rockets into Israel. Hamas, battered but hardly broken, is expected to reassert its political control over Gaza and to resist any attempt to restore a presence for Fatah, the rival faction that runs the Palestinian Authority, within Gaza.

The IDF maintains a line splitting the Gaza strip in half south of Gaza city. With Hamas in such a position and FATAH at peace with Israel what would happen if Israel made a deal with Fatah to transport Fatah fighters and politicians to the Gaza Strip and allow them to retake control of the region. If not Gaza city then the southern part of the strip at least the cities next to Egypt so as to stop the tunnels.

[Каие]

Hamas has rejected the ceasefire since IDF remains in Gaza, they said they will keep resisting until the IDF withdraws and opens the borders. The only reason Israel rejected the UN resolution, and did it's own unilateral ceasefire, is because by doing that, they call the shots. That way they don't have to agree to any terms, no matter how justified or fair.

Further proof this operation was not about stopping the rocket attacks. Hamas said, it would agree to a full cessation of hostilities if the Israelis withdraw and lift the blockade. It seems like Israel doesn't want the rocket attacks to end, the fact of the matter is the Israeli political class doesn't give a damn about anyone, not even the Jews of south Israel, all they care about is political victory. I.e. February 10th elections.

[Astaroth]

Hamas has rejected the ceasefire since IDF remains in Gaza, they said they will keep resisting until the IDF withdraws and opens the borders. The only reason Israel rejected the UN resolution, and did it's own unilateral ceasefire, is because by doing that, they call the shots. That way they don't have to agree to any terms, no matter how justified or fair.

Further proof this operation was not about stopping the rocket attacks. Hamas said, it would agree to a full cessation of hostilities if the Israelis withdraw and lift the blockade. It seems like Israel doesn't want the rocket attacks to end, the fact of the matter is the Israeli political class doesn't give a damn about anyone, not even the Jews of south Israel, all they care about is political victory. I.e. February 10th elections.

And who says that we can trust Hamas? How can we know that Hamas won't bring tons of new weapons into the region once Israel lifts the blockade? How can we know that Hamas won't simply use a ceasefire to rebuild and to become stronger than ever, eventually starting to attack Israel again? How can an organization be trusted that has never hidden its intentions to destroy Israel?

Lifting the blockade would be giving Hamas exactly what they need - time to regroup, weapons and more power. Does Israel really want that?

@mongrel: your comparison between Israel and South Africa does not hold.

[Каие]

And who says that we can trust Hamas?

How can an organization be trusted that has never hidden its intentions to destroy Israel?

I think the question you're trying to ask is.... can we trust Israel? Hamas did not break the ceasefire.

How can we know that Hamas won't bring tons of new weapons into the region once Israel lifts the blockade? How can we know that Hamas won't simply use a ceasefire to rebuild and to become stronger than ever, eventually starting to attack Israel again?

Because, if you had read on, or the news in the last 2 days, you'd see every powerful nation on earth has pledged to police Gaza to stop the smuggling. NATO + US signed a treaty with Israel, UK has offered naval assistance etc. there's very little chance with a world wide coordinated effort, that could happen.

Besides, Hamas and the Palestinians also have the right to defend themselves, the wrong doing begins when they fire the rockets at cities aggressively, but to use weapons against the occupying force....is not terrorism or wrong.

Does Israel really want that?

No one knows what Israel wants. It's actions are erratic and illogical.

[mongrel]

@mongrel: your comparison between Israel and South Africa does not hold.

Well I suppose the racist Apartheid regime was nonetheless less brutal than the current Israeli one and was capable of understanding that violence didn't achieve anything . Why can't Israelis follow the South African or the Ulster model?, you have presented no argument.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Besides, Hamas and the Palestinians also have the right to defend themselves, the wrong doing begins when they fire the rockets at cities aggressively, but to use weapons against the occupying force....is not terrorism or wrong.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt it against the Geneva convention to purpously target civilians. Hamas isnt using weapons against the IDF they are targeting neighborhoods with their mortars and rockets.

Well I suppose the racist Apartheid regime was nonetheless less brutal than the current Israeli one and was capable of understanding that violence didn't achieve anything . Why can't Israelis follow the South African or the Ulster model, you have presented no argument.

Why cant the Palestinians follow the Mandela model you meant to say ?

[MathiasOfAthens]

Hardly so rome. The objectives were to halt Hamas ability to launch rockets into Israel. Short of absolutely conquering the whole of Gaza which would result in an occupation they have achieve their objectives. Israel cannot open the borders. If Israel were to open the borders and allow whatever to go in how long do you think it would be before Hamas or Islamic Jihad starts to launch V2 and larger rockets, how long before gas is used by the terrorist.

Thats like saying "Mr Israel please lift the blockade" but telling Palestinian terrorist in secret that as soon as the blockade is lifted we will start importing more weapons. Please.

[Каие]

Hardly so rome. The objectives were to halt Hamas ability to launch rockets into Israel. Short of absolutely conquering the whole of Gaza which would result in an occupation they have achieve their objectives.

I've said before and will say it again. During this offensive hundreds of rockets were fired, and even more were fired today after the announcing of the ceasefire. Contrary to the claims of politicians desperate to hold onto power, just like in 2006 the IDF has failed to disarm Hamas.

Secondly, during the ceasefire, before Israel broke it, there 0 rockets by Hams and 10 by others. Surely, that was the best option to stopping them?

Israel cannot open the borders. If Israel were to open the borders and allow whatever to go in how long do you think it would be before Hamas or Islamic Jihad starts to launch V2 and larger rockets, how long before gas is used by the terrorist.

Thats like saying "Mr Israel please lift the blockade" but telling Palestinian terrorist in secret that as soon as the blockade is lifted we will start importing more weapons. Please.

Funny then, that in 10 years of the Gaza border being open Hamas did not get chemical weapons, that is just nonsense scare mongering.

In addition every strong country has offered to police the Gazan waters, and Gazan area to stop weapons smuggling.

[mongrel]

Hardly so rome. The objectives were to halt Hamas ability to launch rockets into Israel. Short of absolutely conquering the whole of Gaza which would result in an occupation they have achieve their objectives. Israel cannot open the borders. If Israel were to open the borders and allow whatever to go in how long do you think it would be before Hamas or Islamic Jihad starts to launch V2 and larger rockets, how long before gas is used by the terrorist.

Thats like saying "Mr Israel please lift the blockade" but telling Palestinian terrorist in secret that as soon as the blockade is lifted we will start importing more weapons. Please.

The weapons you mentioned do not exist. Nelson Mandela exists. He managed to become reconciled with the apartheid regime. It just requires some social justice. Rome is perfectly right, this is precisely the same messy end as in Lebanon 2006. The only difference I can see is they did not press the ground assault this time, being content to shell the general populace and UN facilities. I don't know the precise outcome will be, need to wait for that one to replace the global village idiot, but I am certain that this may represent the last dying days of neo-conservatism.

[MathiasOfAthens]

I've said before and will say it again. During this offensive hundreds of rockets were fired, and even more were fired today after the announcing of the ceasefire. Contrary to the claims of politicians desperate to hold onto power, just like in 2006 the IDF has failed to disarm Hamas.

Secondly, during the ceasefire, before Israel broke it, there 0 rockets by Hams and 10 by others. Surely, that was the best option to stopping them?



Funny then, that in 10 years of the Gaza border being open Hamas did not get chemical weapons, that is just nonsense scare mongering.

In addition every strong country has offered to police the Gazan waters, and Gazan area to stop weapons smuggling.

I realize that during the ceasefire Hamas failed to stop the other groups notably Islamic Jihad from firing rockets and mortars which were far more than 10.

Only way to disarm Hamas is to destroy it, convince it through diplomacy, or blockade it into submission.

Hamas is the group in power over the strip as such they failed to halt the rockets that were fired by other groups nontheless they were the ones in power and likewise failed to halt those rockets.

Hamas has not be in power for 10 years. Mind you but if the border was reopened allowing full passage how long do you think it would be before one group manage to import a weapon that has far more destructive power. If not Hamas I know Islamic Jihad would kill to get their hands on a dirty bomb.

The weapons you mentioned do not exist. Nelson Mandela exists. He managed to become reconciled with the apartheid regime. It just requires some social justice.

V2 Rockets do not exist? Rockets larger than V2 do not exist?

Beg your pardon but thats like comparing the reconstruction of Germany and Japan post ww2 to the reconstruction of Iraq and Afganistan post Saddam and Taliban respectively.

As it stands Nelson Mendela and the Apartheid regime do not compare to the IDF and Hamas or IDF and the Palestinians.

In one case one group didnt openly preach destruction of the other while the other case you have groups attempting to get their hands on weapons to kill members of another religion.

[Notepal]

Hardly so rome. The objectives were to halt Hamas ability to launch rockets into Israel. Short of absolutely conquering the whole of Gaza which would result in an occupation they have achieve their objectives. Israel cannot open the borders. If Israel were to open the borders and allow whatever to go in how long do you think it would be before Hamas or Islamic Jihad starts to launch V2 and larger rockets, how long before gas is used by the terrorist.

Thats like saying "Mr Israel please lift the blockade" but telling Palestinian terrorist in secret that as soon as the blockade is lifted we will start importing more weapons. Please.

mmmm, you are wrong, the main objective of israel is to make an ethnical cleaning, read this if you want, those are the confesions of a israeli soldier http://www.kaosenlared.net/noticia/c...oldado-israeli, if you dont understand i will glad to transalate it , and about larger missiles, tell me, how would you fell if sudenly a great army exterminates your family, your house, your city and more, would you just feel happy cause they are finnishing with hamas?? i think not, i want to remark that hamas was armed and promoved by israel to finnish with al fatah when the needed it and then hamas won a internationally recognisez legal selections

[Astaroth]

mmmm, you are wrong, the main objective of israel is to make an ethnical cleaning,

Oh really? Please prove that.

read this if you want, those are the confesions of a israeli soldier

http://www.kaosenlared.net/noticia/c...oldado-israeli, if you dont understand i will glad to transalate it ,

What does one person's opinion have to do with a whole country's policy?

and about larger missiles, tell me, how would you fell if sudenly a great army exterminates your family, your house, your city and more, would you just feel happy cause they are finnishing with hamas?? i think not, i want to remark that hamas was armed and promoved by israel to finnish with al fatah when the needed it and then hamas won a internationally recognisez legal selections

I for my part would not elect a party that openly talks about its plans to attack and destroy my country's very powerful neighor.

I think the question you're trying to ask is.... can we trust Israel? Hamas did not break the ceasefire.

Are you saying that the terrorist organization Hamas is more trustworthy and relieable than a democratic country? And yes, Hamas did indeed break the ceasefire.

Because, if you had read on, or the news in the last 2 days, you'd see every powerful nation on earth has pledged to police Gaza to stop the smuggling. NATO + US signed a treaty with Israel, UK has offered naval assistance etc. there's very little chance with a world wide coordinated effort, that could happen.

The UN and the international community often turn out to be extremely weak. How can you know they will actually care and stop the smuggling completely when even Israel does not accomplish that fully, despite a massive wall and its army guarding Gaza? Will some foreign troops who most likely will not feel like using violence all too much be able to stop desperate and fanatical terrorists from smuggling in heaps of weapons?

Besides, Hamas and the Palestinians also have the right to defend themselves, the wrong doing begins when they fire the rockets at cities aggressively, but to use weapons against the occupying force....is not terrorism or wrong.

Well, if you attack another country, that other country has the right to strike back. Whether it is your right to defend yourself against the justified response is debateable. Did German troops have the "right" to fight against the invading allied troops during WW2? Possibly.

No one knows what Israel wants. It's actions are erratic and illogical.

What does that have to do with what I said? My question was whether Israel wants Hamas to gain access to tons of new weapons.

[Farnan]

I for my part would not elect a party that openly talks about its plans to attack and destroy my country's very powerful neighor.

Actually Hamas didn't mention that in their campaign.

[Notepal]

Oh really? Please prove that.

What does one person's opinion have to do with a whole country's policy?

I for my part would not elect a party that openly talks about its plans to attack and destroy my country's very powerful neighor.

I wont copy paste all the huge amount of notices where israely politics clearly say that, just look around, i am sure you will find it i repeat you that it was israel, with the help of USA who armed and supported Hamas to destroy al fatah, and i repeat you that it is israel who continuosly gives hamas reasons to attack them , thats why they won the elections, cause palestinian people do not have alternatives, die under israeli bombs or die defending themselves, it is not one persons opinion, it is a isaraeli military talking about what they are told to do by the assasin israeli goverment,

[Astaroth]

Actually Hamas didn't mention that in their campaign.

They did not hide it either.

Well I suppose the racist Apartheid regime was nonetheless less brutal than the current Israeli one and was capable of understanding that violence didn't achieve anything . Why can't Israelis follow the South African or the Ulster model, you have presented no argument.

As you said it quite clearly, the South African regime was based on racism. As that clearly does not apply to Israel, I fail to see a connection.

I wont copy paste all the huge amount of notices where israely politics clearly say that, just look around, i am sure you will find it i repeat you that it was israel, with the help of USA who armed and supported Hamas to destroy al fatah, and i repeat you that it is israel who continuosly gives hamas reasons to attack them , thats why they won the elections, cause palestinian people do not have alternatives, die under israeli bombs or die defending themselves, it is not one persons opinion, it is a isaraeli military talking about what they are told to do by the assasin israeli goverment,

Apparently you do not have any proof. Israel does not wish to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians - if that was their objective they seem to be doing a pretty poor job at that, considering how strong their army is and for how long the conflict has already been going on.

[Notepal]

Are you saying that the terrorist organization Hamas is more trustworthy and relieable than a democratic country? And yes, Hamas did indeed break the ceasefire.

Democratic country, , indeed israel is a huge army paid by USA who uses civillians to stablish into collonizated citied, and indeed israel did break the ceasefire converting gaza in a gueto, just giving only energy or gas 3 hours a day, leaving palestinian people wothout basical medical gear, leaving palestinian people starving, and more and more...