About the grenadier?

[Condottiere SOG]

I just put together the meshes of naffatun(just the nahptha_bomb) and generic dragoon..............

@Alpha Delta.......Did you even create the grenade in your attachmentsets/infantry components? If not, it will still do the trick. I am almost done with them.

roundhead_grenadier
royalist_grenadier

ps. this game needs mercs badly.

[AlphaDelta]

@Alpha Delta.......Did you even create the grenade in your attachmentsets/infantry components? If not, it will still do the trick. I am almost done with them.

No.

ps. this game needs mercs badly.

Mercenary bandes would be ahistorical.

Cheers

[Condottiere SOG]

ok. Maurice and Rupert brought Germans with them.

as far as the grenadier goes. I used mesh to ms3d and converted and then back. made one copy. and figured they could share it but M2 can't find them. So I am going to backburner this for a few and do other things.pa

[AlphaDelta]

ok. Maurice and Rupert brought Germans with them.

There were many mercenary individuals in the war, however they didnt fight as unique bandes or companies, they were part of regular English regiments and cavalry troops.

I'm not sure I understand the problem you're having with the mesh.

Cheers

[Theodotos I]

There were many mercenary individuals in the war, however they didnt fight as unique bandes or companies, they were part of regular English regiments and cavalry troops.

I'm not sure I understand the problem you're having with the mesh.

Cheers

I've wondered about this from the start, but figured you must have had a good reason for not including them. Now I know.

[Condottiere SOG]

The grenade; iron ball filled with gunpowder, has been around since 1469, in various forms, as the design came from China. It has been with us ever since. It was used profusely in battles through 1763. There was a lull in usage, with the exception of sieges, as it was deemed dangerous and short-ranged. This was the opinion of some countries, but not all. Russia, Austria and the United States are some of the countries that maintained usage. Several countries had trained men whom fired a grenade launcher that resembled a large barrelled caliver. An example of this can be seen in the 'Last of the Mohicans; Special Edition". It returned to proper usage during the War of 1812 and has maintained its presence since that time in assassination, obstacle demolition and war.

You'd have more chance of meeting a Scottish longbowman - seriously.

I think not. Not one. Anyway, I think you should read your sources again. They do not disclaim the usage of grenades, rather the opposite I think. If you would have found yourself in Frederick the Great's army and facing the Austrians or their grenzers, you would not think so. Short of the novelties of modern tech, the Ist and 2nd Silesian Wars and the Seven Year's War resembled the 2nd World War in ferocity. And I don't think the history of one unit of grenadiers is the history of all units. To your credit, use sources that are encompassing and not so narrowly focused.

since when can you have three weapons?

read an EDU, any EDU, and carefully!

Lets not start getting confused about this, grenades were most definitely used during the war. Grenades from the period have been found. They men that generally deployed grenades during sieges were well armoured dismounted cavalry. The dragoon mesh is really wrong for this role.

Cheers

So what, pray tell, would you use? Dismounted Harquebusiers? Most countries armed their Dragoons with grenades.

Cheers

[Mr_Fluffy]

Hi Condottierre SOG,

What has Frederick the Great to do with the English Civil War? You appear to have your dates confused. We're dealing with the seventeenth century here, not the eighteenth.

Please read my first post again - I even gave a reference to the limited use of grenades in 1643, something that is not in dispute. My main concern is their effect on the game - which works so well at the moment. What safeguards could you offer me to ensure that I don't come up against an AI spawned army of grenadiers in open combat? But as I accept, the decision is not mine.

As for longbows and references...



Used by Scots and Irish armies, apparently.

The English Civil War an Ilustrated Military History, by Phillip Haythornthwaite (Blandford Press) is just one of several I've got knocking around. There's also an interesting pic of a seige engineer very heavy armour in the same book. Can post if anyone's interested - might make a nice grenadier...

Cheers now,
Mr Fluffy

[Condottiere SOG]

Well it seemed a mess to use dragoon mesh. I think I will try the halberdier later as I originally thought to do, 's more of an assault trooper anyway. Plus, I don't use the pike animations anyway.

M2TW_Fast_Javelin and M2TW_Javelin_Primary will go in there.

Congratulations on the PC Magazine review.

[Condottiere SOG]

On second thought I will try the dragoon again. It seems that you can make more than four entries in the animations part of the models file. So they will fire from the front rank and lob from the rear when the enemy is close.

I wonder should it be a normal size 1/4 battalion size at 100 men or 1/5 company size at 20-company size varied I know- any less would be pointless?

[Mr_Fluffy]

Grenadiers would ruin the unique feel of FKOC. Historically they saw limited use (clearing Westbury church, Bristol 1643 for instance).

Totally agree with AD on mercenaries.

Just my two groats worth.

[shakesword]

Guys, I'll second this feature. Don't be so conservative. Let's think the way how to improve gameplay instead of how not to ruin.

I think it is talked that there is no need to do this soldiers with instant ability to bombard every enemy from an artillery range.

I myself could agree with their participation in MY battles ONLY if they will be implemented with a LIMITED SPECIAL ability to be able to throw granade ONLY SEVERAL or even TWO TIMES DURING THE BATTLE with a range ONLY 40 meters at the most (in the game scale) with ALSO a good preparation time AND a chance of a failure resulting in spectacular self murder. This way it would be historically correct.

To make it absolutely historically correct we could also limit the way to get many of them. First of all with a long building chain. Secondly with the AOR. Thirdly with the event counter. And most important way is to weaken their other stats like defence.

If someone will make this straight I would like to find myself in a situation when a brilliant attack of my horses get bogged down with enemy's granades. OR a cavalry-proof wall of my pikeman could be disorganized by grenadiers followed the charge of lobsters.

Conserning the mercs I think that this feature could only be introduced in a way the religion was ie representing the need of getting some fresh force fast and outside of a settlement (think of the fact how many recruitment points / minor settlements like Manchester was missed from the map becouse of its scale). And also this force should be rather weak and costly resulting in questionable advantage. The chance of getting some foreigners' regiment is not authentic but hypothetical so to add such intrigue it should be of course limited with AOR and event counter. But if I could see such a regiment only once it would be fun no less then covenanters army.

Of course AD makes the final decision and I will play his game with or without grenadiers. HAIL AD!

[AlphaDelta]

Grenadiers, I am for, have been from the beginning. They were meant to be part of 1.5 but I didnt (and still don't) have the time, so I :wub:ned them.

Cheers

[Condottiere SOG]

I can take this one up. It won't be hard. A three pound grenade can be lobbed either 30-40 meters. I, as I mentioned before, will user the generic dragoon as a base. He will fire a musket, lob a grenade and melee with a sword. At strength 20, one could be made per turn or 100 at 5 turns. I prefer smaller and these guys will the dashing best swordsmen. To lead and attack of halberdiers and pikemen and dragoons into the breach. You have to imagine these guys would get wiped quickly by cavalry. Particularly if the horse masses are correct, so it offsets the potential imbalance feared. They may never even let off 1 grenade. I am for 3 per man.

[Bernem]

since when can you have three weapons?

[Mr_Fluffy]

I still maintain they were too rare to be a factor and would cast the grim spectre of MTW-style A.I. catapults in field battles silly-burgerry in FCOK. You'd have more chance of meeting a Scottish longbowman - seriously.

However, I shall graciously submit to the will of the original creator, should my views be cast aside. Just look on me as Devil's advocate.

http://www.grenadiers.info/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadier_(soldier)

http://www.blackwellreference.com/pu...6848511_ss1-24

[shakesword]

Well... I see your point. On the one hand we could not deny the fact that there is no reference about separate regiments of this soldiers of the field until 1656 ("The Grenadiers began their life as the Grenadier Guards in 1656 in Bruges, Spanish Netherlands and were comprised of English Royalists that served as bodyguards for the exiled King Charles II.")

On the other hand the fact that it was royalist that formed such a regiment means that this weapon was known to the veterans of the war.

OK. I would also agree if this soldiers will be organized in small groups. Now I begin to perceive why you consider their role to be bare...

[AlphaDelta]

Lets not start getting confused about this, grenades were most definitely used during the war. Grenades from the period have been found. They men that generally deployed grenades during sieges were well armoured dismounted cavalry. The dragoon mesh is really wrong for this role.

Cheers

[Condottiere SOG]

I am familiar with Haythornthwaite, a fan actually. My reference is regarding your refute of the grenade. I am sure that the likelihood of the grenadier was a bit more common in the ECW. The crossbow was more common and where are they? I doubt the grenadier could be posted in the English advent for the unit was not yet created. However, a man might throw a shell to cause a ruckus or were you not listening to the part when I mentioned the dragoon or yon engineer or cannoneer or random fop in a desperate pinch to save his arse. But he was more likely than a tattered curmudgeon with an over-wraught toothpick tosser at a bowling match. These pics have been disputed before.


Rather, Slainte

Brandishing comics, good one.

[shakesword]

Gentlemen, let's remain calm Pity to me I have no time to examine the question on my own but as a sophisticated player I rather will accept the less conservative side of this discussion and to believe that AD is right and such weapon was common 10 years before Royal Grenadiers was founded. Yes, there is no example of a tactic that is known to be adopted in a day. All weapon evolves with time.

@Mr Fluffy: Anyway the only way to accept new type of regiment I meant was BALANCED one with restricted, very limited ability almost questionable advantage taking into account the range of a throw and the risk of failure. As I described before no one will be happy with armies packed with somehow out-of-balance strong unit. No way. I am not an idiot to dream about it

[Condottiere SOG]

Success. I have used the grenade with the dragoon in the 'For King or Country' mod. Sword is the ternary or tertiary weapon and I did not test that.

-----YOU CANNOT HAVE TWO RANGED WEAPONS AT ONCE-----

I recommend the Halberdier for this weapon.

In the case of the grenade in this war, any unit could have used it. It can also be done in this mod. Although I recommend some units only getting 1 or 2 grenades.

This did not require manipulating models. all script. battle_models and EDU.

this is a replay. it should work if not I can send bm file and edu to testers.