[Faction Discussion] Kingdom of Champa

[Augustus Lucifer]

Kingdom of Champa

This thread can be used for team members to discuss the Kingdom of Champa faction. Research, ideas, and imagery to use in our development of the faction are appreciated.

[Asean]

Champa Archers:


The Chams are usually depicted wearing lotus shaped helms, like in this picture.

Another Champa depiction, this time using long shields and spear.

[RobinCato]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The architecture of this country is really something very interesting. There are many different styles of Art. We should present some buldings on the campaign map, honouring the great architects this country had.


Something to the military at medieval times:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cham Infantery: Their upper bodies covered by tunics, wearing distinctive headgear consisting in helmets and scarves, and carrying small shields in addition to their weapons.






A Cham soldier fighting againts a Khmer soldier. The Cham one is on the right.

As in other south east asian countries, also in the Kingdom of Champa are many different religions. (Budhism, Hinduihsm, Islam...)
Due to that we could create many buildings.

Some events, which definately should be in:

Mongolian Invasion of Champa.

The Sack of Angkor by the Champs.


Important note: Just amateur research, I only try to help.

[Wundai]

Yes I like the second pic very much, for me a candidate for Strat Map Modeling, Yelü lets put it on the list?

[vietanh797]

In Vietnam there still Myson with many structure build by Champa
I visit that place 2 years ago
just wait I am trying to find any picture I have
I put them somewhere in my house and forgot

[Sultan Nedim]

Elephant mounted crossbow

[vietanh797]

Some pictures in a historcal comic book:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Champa vs DaiViet



Song diploma talking with some Champa generals:

[Yelü Dashi]

Really good pics mate - got any more ?

The second pic is mainly of Dai Viet troops right ?

[vietanh797]

Really good pics mate - got any more ?

The second pic is mainly of Dai Viet troops right ?

The 2'nd and the 3'rd pic are 2 part of a big pic. But because it's in 2 pages so i must take 2 pictures.

Most of the 2'nd pic are Champa soldiers: the elephant, 5 men on the elephant (i think the one in the middle are the general), the one half-naked with the curved shield. The only 1 Daiviet soldier in this pic is the one mounting the horse, with a round shield and spear, who is killing the half-naked Champa.

The 3'rd pic is the right part of the big pic. Except the one with the curved shield at the bottom, all of them are DaiViet.

I'll try to find more.

[Yelü Dashi]

Ah ok, I actually meant the third pic so that explains it. if you could find more ..would be good.

[fugazi_]

I'm struggling to find pics; but the mounted crossbow is the chinese ballista; introduced to the Chams by a shipwrecked Chinese officer; named Ji Yangyun (1172). He also instructed the Chams in mounted archery. The then King Jaya Indravarman IV ordered to import horses from Hainan, but China banned their export so the Cham cavalry couldn't be increased as they had wished for.

[Marcion]

Some information about the situation the faction should start in:
First,there is the king.Jaya Indravarman IV.He was probably an usurper(should have a "political animal" trait or something like that)
At this point(start-1180 AD) he should have the traits/ancillaries of a veteran general,since he fought several wars with the Khmer already.He was portrayed as a brave man,skilled with weapons.He also was an erudite well-versed in mahayana theories and the drahmasutra(a large body or rather a genre of texts dealing with religion and jurisprudence-I cannot recall if there are some traits like "knowledgeable of the law" in Medieval 2 total war,but if there are,he certainly should have them.If not,he should have other traits useful in maintaining order in cities).(from Mỹ Sơn Relics by Ngô Vǎn Doanh, p.87.)

.Also,during his 1977 invasion of Cambodia,he enjoyed some heavy pillaging,so he should have pillaging traits,too((From:The history of Cambodia from 1st century to 20th century, http://sokheounnews.files.wordpress....varman-vii.pdf).

Slightly before the start of the game(around 1177 AD) there seems to have been a military reform(a shipwrecked chinese mandarin allegedly told the king how to defeat the Khmer):On both sides, elephants were used for fighting, without great advantage. The Mandarin advised the king of champa to use horsemen armed with crossbow, to whom he taught the art of using their bows on horseback...The success of the inovation was enormous, victory declared ifself for champa(ibid.).It seems he was heavily depedendent on China for his horses.
Now,how should the king look in-battle and as a portrait?"The king binds his hair26 at the back of the head, and drapes himself in a cotton robe. He wears a gold filigree crown, decorated with seven varieties of jewels. He also wears necklaces as ornaments for the clothing. The shins are left exposed and he wears leather shoes without socks."(from asia research institute working paper no.53 http://static.blog4ever.com/2009/05/...2063329985.pdf - the paper also contains extremely precise information on goods the champa traded with and their natural riches).Generally "the Chams dress 'in a single piece of cotton or silk wrapped about the body. They wear their hair in a bun on the top of their head, and they pierce their ears in order to wear small metal rings."(from
The Champs: Survivors of a Lost Civilisation).A note-their most important export seems to have been slaves and sapan wood(a very expensive trade article)(ibid.).Most of their income came from maritime trade and piracy.A sidenote-large amounts of champa wealth were squandered on building great towers and tower complexes,pictures/accounts of which I will supply later,if I can find time.The towers should be present,perhaps as some sort of administrative building adding to order in the cities.It does seem their agriculture was not very advanced.Not backwards(probably), but they really were not able of much else than feeding their own people,it seems.
As far as religion is concerned, the champa population was generally(I would say some 80 percent) shaivist hinduist.
I do not know what is the state or "region making" now-could someone please tell me if the champa regions are already decided upon?
And,I am going to write to some specialist historiand, especially to mister Georges Maspero,the author of "The Champa Kingdom: The History of an Extinct Vietnamese Culture"(i anyone could find a copy of this book,it would be a holy grail for champa research),so I would like to ask you to prepare some questions you would like to ask him which cannot be found anywhere else(as for me,it will be "who were the other important figures in the king's court at the time(who should the other generals be).

Copying hshg's post from the public board

[Marcion]

Wow those PDFs are pretty extensive, especially the one about Jayavarman, but I'm a bit confused. Weren't he and Indravarman IV kings of the Khmer?

We're also coming up with an entirely new set of traits and ancillaries, so don't worry about those so much.

We have some photos already here of their towers. I guess just their presence could probably do a lot to convince people of the king's power. And I can believe he squandered most of their wealth on them too. They seem like the kind of thing that should be linked directly to the city's development, sort of like the walls in vanilla, and give a public order bonus.

I think Alex is working on the map of southeast Asia here right now. I'm sure he'd appreciate your input.

[hshg]

Well,about jaya/indra varman and other varmans...it seems this was quite a common name for the kings.something like english kings-they are either richard,or george,or edward:-).
As such,the Khmer king in 1181 was named Jayavarman(VII),while the champa king was "Jaya Indravarman",number IV.

[hshg]

in that case, I will post the map info.i hope I can do that today.

[hshg]

It seems quite a good research has already been done in the public forums,so I will try to summarise the findings.Historically,Champa consisted of five or less principalities.The principalities were:Vijaya(the capital at the time we're starting),Amaravati,Indrapura,Kathura and Panduranga.The public discussion provides this map,complete with important trade articles: http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5...andproduct.png . I do not know where the guy is taking his info from, so we can either trust him,or write him(and that is not my call;-))However,there has been some disagreement in public discussion about the location of the capitals/principalities.According to the article "The geography of the ancient kingdom of Champa in Central Vietnam,Vietnam" by Tran Ky Phuong and ,regrettably,wikipedia:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...namChampa1.gif The principalities Are:
a)Indrapura,which controlled everything north of it.It is located here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tnamDaNang.png The Indrapura’s port should be located at the site of present day Hoi an,there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%E1%BB%99i_An ..We actually do not know for certain that the area was under Cham control at the start of the game.I suggest to make this a very strong rebel region,for following reasons:
1.according to modern theories the Champa was never a unified kingdom,but rather five principalities with one always being in the lead and the others being subservient,vassals, or defiant.
2.This place was the previous capital.Glory of this city waned as the vietnamese were coming from north.As such,it would be unhappy about Vijaya gaining primacy and could well turn against it.As we are portraying the Cham as being unified,it actually means that they would be against the faction.
As such,making the city rebel would portray the city being a rival(but not active,because too weak to do that) to the Vijaya government and still oppose the vietnamese invasion from the north.
b)Amaravati, in controll of this region http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...amQuangNam.png . god knows where the port was,but it should probably be located in the river estuary.Also,the important temple site of My Son is located there(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Sơn).The exact location of the city seems unknown,but the possible sites can be seen in the .pdf linked below.
c)Vijaya.The capital.Its location is at the Cha Ban archeological site, visible here(page 2): http://pnclink.org/annual/annual2003...pdf/110931.pdf . The port is at the present day’s Qui Nhon.It can be seen there http://webpages.charter.net/rrossier...ietnam-map.gif
Everything not specified to belong to anyone belongs to Vijaya.
d)Kauthara.Should probably own the Dak Lak,Dak Nonh and Khanh Hoa provinces of vietnam : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ovincesMap.png .located there : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nha_Trang .
e)Panduranga.Located there: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mNinhThuan.png .Its zone of control should be the two adjacent provinces to the west.Its location should be as specified in the .pdf
So,that is all.I suggest that we write to the guy on the public forum,the nick is „yevon“.Unless someone already did,which I of course would not know.Some of his Info seems chaotic,but he may know something we don’t.I am sorry I could not create a map from the Info,but I am working on a small laptop and would have problems in applying the locations to the map of vietnam well enough.If a map is required,I can not do that until my PC is operational again,which may take some time.