[Faction Discussion] Tibetan Kingdoms

[Augustus Lucifer]

Tibetan Kingdoms

This thread can be used for team members to discuss the Tibetan Kingdoms faction. Research, ideas, and imagery to use in our development of the faction are appreciated.

[danova]

This is my part! Hello!
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[Yelü Dashi]

Hey danova. Will post some ideas very soon.

[danova]

OK mate. I'm glad because see you.
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[Yelü Dashi]

Armour (lots of lamellar and chainmail)













Weapons

Distinctive short swords:







Two unit concepts:



General ?






Above if from a chinese film, a tibetan version of hamlet 'prince of the himalayas' thought might work as inspiration for a tribal infantry of some kind. watch the film if you get the chance, the production values are quite high and it steers clear of shots of monks in coloured robes, presenting the Tibetans in a gritty mixture of wolf skins, silks, leather, snow leopard hides, wool, and deep colored fabrics and jewelery. Which is probably a much more accurate depiction of the warlike mountain people the Tibetans were during our time period.




The people of Kham, in eastern Tibet, were known for their horsemanship. Perhaps a 'Khampa horsemen' could be a regional AOR unit ?

From Wikipedia:

Since the collapse of the Tibetan Empire in the mid-9th century, the peoples of Kham had aggressively maintained their independence from Lhasa. Local chieftains ruled their respective territories with hereditary titles bestowed by Chinese emperors. Chinese control was minimal, however, and chieftains were able to rule with a large degree of independence from both China and Tibet

Personally I love Osprey painting (second to last pic), it references real arms and armour collected at the Royal Armouries in Leeds, and although its from much later than our period, I believe things would not have changed drastically through the centuries.

Danova, it you're ready I suggest you work on three different meshes: light, medium and heavy. we can worry about weapons/variation/the actual roster later, but those can be the core meshes that we can then expand on. Let me know if you need more guidance, thanks again for agreeing to help. I'm jealous , the Tibetan kingdoms are fascinating faction to bring to life.

edit: I will add more pics to this post as I find them, especially light cav/infantry.


here is the unit I created some months ago, looks too middle eastern, shields look alright tho. I can send you files if you think you might want to use them

[RollingWave]

Because we don't really have a ton of solid info to work with here (this was basically a time of division and mini kingdoms for Tibet), Tibetan Kingdom will probably allow a larger degree of freedom than other factions in terms of fantasy just don't make any Yak riding archers

How will this faction work though? start as one city with lots of rebels? or some sort of code limit that means they can't work in cohension too much?

[Augustus Lucifer]

just don't make any more then three units of Yak riding archers

Fixed that for you.

How will this faction work though? start as one city with lots of rebels? or some sort of code limit that means they can't work in cohension too much?

It's debateable. I'd guess it would best work like the Mongol campaign where you have to unite the kingdoms. I suppose the player would be whatever kingdom claims direct descent from Langdarma. It's all open to discussion though, none of it is really strongly decided. If we can get the challenge faction function to work with the Mongols, what would probably be done is usage of that.

[Xuande]

Are you planning to make some "warrior monk" units ?

It would be sensible as up to 1959 each large monastery maintained troops of warrior monks (the Gelugpa called them "dob dob"). When they did not rely on Mongol allies or local noblemen, rival sects used these monastic troops to fight each other and to enforce order within the precincts of their monasteries.

The period in which this mod is set saw the birth of the theocratic model in Tibet, with the appearance of the Kagyu and Sakyapa lineages (who eventually fought each other). So I guess it wouldn't be historically irrelevant to give the player the possibility to build either Sakyapa or Kagyupa monasteries and then to recruit "warrior monks" as a light, high morale and endurance infantry.

Warrior monks should look like normal monks. They were selected for their strength and vigour, so they should be tall. Probably no armour. Just the plain monastic dress (I don't know if it was already red at that time. And I don't know if they were already wearing the triangular bonnet/hat of the 15th century lamas). Long time ago, I read the autobiography of a dob dob. And I think the guy said that his fellows used a kind of heavy stick as a weapon (or fought bare handed). Although it's a 20th century source, I guess the warrior monks weaponry did not evolve much. So, if added to tibetan units, these guys should use the same kind of weapon that Vanilla's fanatics (or something like that).

Here would be the appropriate features of the unit :
- Low acquisition cost, although building a large monastery would be a pre-requisite,
- Low maintenance cost, because these are low class people. And they're monks. So they do not need fancy dresses and jewels. They don't need a real salary because its their monastery which takes care of them. So low maintenance cost.
- No or poor armour.
- High morale. Because they fight for religious reasons (or so they believe),
- High endurance. Because they spent most of their time training, especially jumping (!) and running.
- Fast. See above
- Furious.
- Bonus when fighting in the woods (and hills ?).
- Average charge.
- Higher attack than defence.
(optional : scares the ennemy or give a morale boost to friendly troops).

These warriors wouldn't stand a chance against cavalry and missile troops, but could help against basic militia units. In other words, a rather crappy and yet useful auxiliary force (because of its cost and occasional effects on ally or enemy morale).


Other input :

>> The references of a book that might be interesting :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Himalayan-Wa.../dp/0300111533

"Himalayan Warriors: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet (Metropolitan Museum of Art Publications) " D La Rocca


A few more pictures :




source : http://www.tibet.cn/tibetzt-en/xzbz/...%20body/p3.htm

>> Here's an old thread from China History forum displaying a Tibetan cavalry armor :

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...er&f=55&t=6293


>> A folk picture depicting the legendary tibetan folk hero Guesar of Ling :



Source : http://www.padmaling.ch/Deutsch/Text...ame/guesar.htm

[danova]

>> The references of a book that might be interesting :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Himalayan-Wa.../dp/0300111533

"Himalayan Warriors: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet (Metropolitan Museum of Art Publications) " D La Rocca [/URL]

Thanks mate! I have orderedit!
More thanks!
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[danova]

hey many info!
Thanks mates!
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[Asean]

These are 19th century photographs of Tibetans wearing those same armors. I don't think the armor changed much since the 12th century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Khorney]

yes, from what i've read the general consensus is that armour styles did not change for many years, and even late tibetan armours resemble some of the earlier (song) chinese armour

[danova]

thanks mate!
More example?

[danova]

where do i found the tibetian's units rooster? (unit list)
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[Yelü Dashi]

Danova, it you're ready I suggest you work on three different meshes:
light, medium and heavy. we can worry about weapons/variation/the actual roster later, but those can be the core meshes that we can then expand on

There is no roster as yet. But that doesn't mean we can't start creating models & textures !

Three distinct meshes is a good way to start.

Light infantry shouldwith broadswords be based on this guy:




Heavy (lamellar) mesh can be based on the spearmen infantry here, and medium mesh can use chainmail (the mounted archer in the same image below)

[danova]

What is material this shield is made off?

Metal? Is its weight would be too heavy.
... or shomething wattle/wicker thing?

[danova]

ok mate! I think over...
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[Yelü Dashi]

danova isn't it really expensive ? I know it's a great book, with full page photographs, I took it out of my university library and was going to scan in some pictures. So maybe hold off on the order, and save some $$$ ?

[danova]

I dont know mate!
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[Yelü Dashi]

Probably rattan . This was used by many asian peoples to make shields and armour.