[Faction Discussion] Goryeo

[Augustus Lucifer]

Goryeo

This thread can be used for team members to discuss the Goryeo faction. Research, ideas, and imagery to use in our development of the faction are appreciated.

[Augustus Lucifer]

From the other dev forum:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

South Korea:



North Korea:

Stumbled upon this while perusing information about Goryeo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobang

Apparently the Tobang were the elite guard units of those who took power in 1170 in Goryeo, right before the start of our mod. Would make a really interesting unique unit, and they definitely will be included. I'll see if I can find some pictures.

Using them as general's bodyguards perhaps?

They were divided into 6 categories and were key bodyguards in enforcing the military dictatorship of Kyung Dae-seung and later Choi Choong Heon,

but I'm having slight difficulties finding out their organization/size/etc..

I just found a doctorate paper regarding Tobang (Dobang would be a better phonetic, the one in wikipedia is old), and it seems that for the two military regimes that were

protected by Dobang, the leaders were never assassinated while other military regime leaders have been killed by others, which many historians agree that they were

quite effective in protecting their lord's life.

They were mostly criminals/thieves/brigands who were caught by the regime who were trained and transformed into a private army.

[STELLover]

FACTION: GORYEO

This is a basic overview information to the dev about the Faction Goryeo, the following information is mostly historically accurate:


FACTION OVERVIEW During this time (1171AD) when the campaign starts, Goryeo was largely influenced by high ranking generals in the army, whom called themselves Moo-Sin (General). These Moo-Sins had a lot of political and military power, and the council of Moo-Sins sometimes made national decisions, laws and sometimes forced the king to their own. Therefore, Goryeo Generals had a lot of authority (Can be a general trait/ancillary)

Goryeo's army was separately commanded by individual generals (Moo-Sins) who reported independantly to the Supreme Commander, whom, was still under command of the King. Its army was separated by provinces. According to the "Encyclopedia of Goryeo" it constructed more than 50 forts and small castles between valleys and forges from the Goryeo-Chinese border inspite frequent Chinese and Mongol Tribe invasions.



UNIT OVERVIEW (Historical)
Strengths:
-Goryeo's penninsula geography made Goryeo's Naval power one of the top, if not, the best navy in all east Asia.
The Naval Merchants Guild (Real), like the Merchants guild, provides discounts for the Goryeo navy, as well as allowed recruitment of special types of ships (I am not sure if you guys can do such thing)

Goryeo also brags in:
-Heavy Infantry, some of the best in Asia
-Armored Spearmen
-Some of the best Archers. (Korea won the Olympics in Archery 10 times a row)

However they lack in:
-Effective Heavy Calvary
-Light Calvary
-Ineffective militia. The encyclopedia mentions Goryeo militia had low armored civilians and retired soldiers with a short swords and forks. Militia Bowmen was also present at the time

Other military specs:
-Archeologists showed evidence that they used some mounted archers
-Advanced technology, second to China

THE HERALDRY OF THE GORYEO KINGDOM
(I have removed their authorical titles like (Myeong Jong, Shin Jong, Hee Jong, but removed because its sounds too funny)

Historical Line of Goryeo kings

Due to some rulers who ruled for 3-5 years, i have deleted them in this list

1- King Myeong (1170-1197)
2- King Shin (1197-1204)
3- King Hee (1204-1211) Forced out of rule by Moo-Shins (Like Japanese Shoguns)
4- King Kang (1211-1213) Forced out of rule by Moo-Shins
5- King Ko (1213-1259)
6- King Won (1259-1274)

New Line of Choongs (They were formidable leaders, maybe +2 Authority?

7- King Choong Ryul (1274-1308)
8- King Choong Suk (1308-1339)
9- King Choong Hae (1339-1344)
10- King Choong Mok (1344-1351)
Line of Choongs End

Since Augustus mentioned the timeframe is between 1171 and 1181, King Myeong should appear as the faction leader, and Crown Prince Shin as heir




FAMOUS GENERALS

General Jung Joong Bu- A powerful and notorious commander who stressed the defense of Goryeo from the Mongol Tribal Factions, as well as tried to seize authority as Supreme Commander


General Che Choong- A famous general who is known to have more power and influence than his current king, King Shin. A great military commander and strategist, but a heavy drinker and a public pervert. Ruled militarily for five years 1172-1177 Died 1251.



RELIGION
Goryeo is mainly Buddist, but 5% Confucianism (I can't find the exact type of Buddhis during this time period- sorry

FAMOUS SETTLEMENTS(ADVANCED)

Capital: Gae Gyeong (Present Day Seoul)
Famous/Advanced Castles:
1-Cheon-Li Castle - Near the Tae Dong River (Actually a huge group of 9 concentric castles)
2-Seo-Gyeong- Present Day Pyeong Yang




Please PM me if you request more information

[TheLastPrivate]

Looks good, I agree that their military theme should be more defensive than offensive.

I really wish we could incorporate Gum-cha into AUH (would take some modeling&animation editing).


One comment:

Cheon-Li "Castle" is more of a walll that bordered the Liao and Jin, rather than a castle. The group of 9 fortresses is built by Yoon Kwan (founder of elite Byul Moo Ban corps) and I believe they were called "Dong-buk Gu Seong (東北 九城)" whicih means "9 fortresses of Northeast".

When the 9 fortresses were given to the Jurchens due to political in-fighting (stupid nobles!), it became a very important power base for them to found Jin (9 fortresses!)

Below is the location of the 9 castles (I accidently wrote 6), and the "Thousand Lee Wall" is the Cheon-li Wall. There are theories that suggest the 9 fortresses were located in a much more northeastern part of the peninula (bordering the Yalu river), but in any case I think the 9 fortresses deserve a spot on the map as it was important for both Goryeo and Jurchens. (of course we can't have 9 fortresses clumped there but a single fortress will do the job)

[TheLastPrivate]

Take mass-media with grain of salt but these 2008 movie is based on an erotic poem called Ssang Hwa Jeom (Dumpling shop), and its a story based on a very inappropriate relationship between the King, the Qeen, and the Royal guard in the 13th century, with homosexual themes as well. This poem was banned during most of Joseon dynasty but recently came to light.

Drama aside, we can see the extravagant lifestyle of Goryeo palace and the nobles.

The clothing is a mix of Mongol/Song/Goryeo because, according to the creators, it was a period when Goryeo was trying to wriggle out of Mongolian influence, but its mostly ahistorical.

[TheLastPrivate]

Triple posting to avoid confusion.

The following are some pictures I dug up.



Picture of Sam Byul Cho(elite corps of the military regime), conquering Tamra island as a base for their rebellion against the Mongols.



Modernized drawing of low-ranking general and a spearmen.




Picture of Gae-ma Cavalry (heavy cavalry) and Gum Cha (Sword Wagon).

[STELLover]

Triple posting to avoid confusion.

The following are some pictures I dug up.



Modernized drawing of low-ranking general and a spearmen.




Picture of Gae-ma Cavalry (heavy cavalry) and Gum Cha (Sword Wagon).

Yeah some nice pics- The moderators can use those pics plus mine in the other thread as a visual representation of the Goryeo army

:::: Regarding the Cheon Li- Fortress thing, Cheon-Li like what TheLastPrivate has mentioned, is actually a long defensive wall build by generals in order to counter increasing Mongolian threat. This however, can also be compared to the great wall of China. I regarded this as a important settlement- via Fortress on the Battlemap because the wall itself along with the 9 concentric castles was a crucial watch point for the Koryeo army. My encyclopedia says that during King Myeong's rule, he ordered more than 20,000 men to be posted on guard in the Cheon-Li Fortess on the Goryeo- China/Mongolian border

[TheLastPrivate]

Goryeo actually had a lot of professional troops at hand.
During the height the King would employ up to 48000 professional troops to deploy at the spot to counter foreign threats. That's a lot for a faction this size/population.

The terrible side of history is that most of the soldiers were used to quell rebellions and uprising during the struggle of military regime vs. King & landowning nobles.

This is a big difference where in Japan, Shogun and the Bakuhu replaced Tenno as the ruling center of power quite quickly (especially after the Mongolian invasions), while Goryeo Kings soemtimes ended up seeking Mongol/Jin/Liao aid in the struggle for power.

We Koreans end up spend most of our energy infighting it seems

[STELLover]

This is an additon to the LastPrivate's Heavy Calvary of Goryeo



This is the KoGae Heavy Calvary- These men were originally Goguryeo calvary tasked to defend the king in battle. Still used in Goryeo, they were armored with a full scaled body armor which gave the rider both heavy armor and defense against arrows, as well as gave them flexibility. This should be a model for the Goryeo general bodyguards- but just as suggestion as a researcher

[STELLover]

This should also be a good picture of militiamen of the Goryeo army- they were amed with a simple iron spear and rectangular shield with light- leather to iron pad armor

[RollingWave]

very nice, but seems slightly conflicting in that the first part meantion they didn't have effective heavy cav yet the later pics bring up several pretty fearsome looking onces?

I thought Korea and China (and to a lesser extend Japan) behaved pretty similarly towards religion, in that they didn't have a hard seperation and most people were just believer of multiple religion.

[STELLover]

very nice, but seems slightly conflicting in that the first part meantion they didn't have effective heavy cav yet the later pics bring up several pretty fearsome looking onces?

I thought Korea and China (and to a lesser extend Japan) behaved pretty similarly towards religion, in that they didn't have a hard seperation and most people were just believer of multiple religion.

Yeah, you are exactly right-

Mentioning about the calvary- Goryeo did not implement a large calvary force into its army- a contrary to that is the Jin Dynasty and the Mongol Khanate in which at least a fourth of their army was comprised of calvary. Goryeo doesn't have much variety in Calvary either- just a some mounted archers, heavy Gae-Ma calvary, and the Bodyguards

Thanks for your comment

[TheLastPrivate]

very nice, but seems slightly conflicting in that the first part meantion they didn't have effective heavy cav yet the later pics bring up several pretty fearsome looking onces?

I thought Korea and China (and to a lesser extend Japan) behaved pretty similarly towards religion, in that they didn't have a hard seperation and most people were just believer of multiple religion.

Goryeo heavy cavalry was a tradition from Goguryeo, but in field battles the heavily armoured cavalry were not exactly efficient against fast,light, but deadly horse archer armies of the North. Against such deadly threat Goryeo army started to focus more on siege defence and archery, using the mountains as cover.

Yun Gwan reformed the army to make Shin Gi Gun, which recruited new corps of lighter horsemen as well, but that comes after Jurchen invasion.


Regarding religion, Goryeo was a buddhist nation. This section is not my forte, so I'll start with a link to wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...2.80.931392.29

[celestialwarrior]

Goryeo heavy cavalry was a tradition from Goguryeo, but in field battles the heavily armoured cavalry were not exactly efficient against fast,light, but deadly horse archer armies of the North. Against such deadly threat Goryeo army started to focus more on siege defence and archery, using the mountains as cover.

Yun Gwan reformed the army to make Shin Gi Gun, which recruited new corps of lighter horsemen as well, but that comes after Jurchen invasion.

Goryeo probably had less access to horse-breeding areas than Goguryeo (which had access to at least some horse-breeding areas in Manchuria since Goguryeo was actually based in southern Manchuria) but even Goguryeo still seemed to have relied more on mountain fortresses rather than heavy cavalry, at least in the wars against the Sui and the Tang. Korea's mountainous terrain made it unsuitable for cavalry maneuvers, as opposed to the Central Plains of China or the Central Asian steppes. Even a large part of Manchuria is mostly forests, although open steppe country existed in western Manchuria on the plains. So even Goguryeo's cavalry was probably limited, not to mention Goryeo which had less access to horse-breeding areas than Goguryeo.

And the "deadly horse archer armies of the North", i.e. the Khitan Liao, Jurchen Jin, and Mongols, did have cataphract-like armored cavalry that was just as heavily armored, if not more so, than those of Goguryeo or Goryeo. Certainly the Khitan Liao and especially the Jurchen Jin did. As a matter of fact, the Jin had a unit called Tiefutu/"Iron Pagodas" where man and horse was armored up in double layers of iron lamellar armor; there were at least enough of these guys so that the Song response was to emphasize use of specific anti-cavalry weapons like the mazhadao and zhanmadao.

So I highly doubt that Goryeo abandoned heavy cavalry because of "fast Northern horse archers". Probably, it was because Goryeo never had control of any significant horse-breeding areas in the first place and thus can't field sufficient numbers of cavalry because of lack of warhorses which means its offensive power is almost nonexistant. This is probably why Goryeo was largely on the defensive. And being on the defensive, Goryeo used the natural defenses of Korea, i.e. mountains, to their advantage in the form of mountain strongholds/forts, just like the [Southern] Song used the Yangzi river to their advantage in the form of a powerful navy that controlled the Yellow Sea as well.

[TheLastPrivate]

Not trying to say that Goryeo fielded as many cavalry as Goguryeo did (obviously, loss of manchuria was a blow, and this has been discussed already here), but some of the biggest victories of Goryeo were in the fields of Gwiju (an open field battle between Goryeo and Liao), and records agree that around 12000 heavy cavalry were deployed in that battle alone.

Tts a relative measure - compared to the North, that's a small number of cavalry. Compared to the total # of forces and population, that's pretty sizeable.

[STELLover]

In addition to the low variety of calvary when being compared to other factions, the low availability of horses in the penninsula made it common for the Korean during that time to buy horses from China (KoreanHistoryEncyclopedia V.II pg432)

- In return, this could mean heavy calvary would be pretty expensive, while military reforms, and drafts can make infantry based units much cheaper and more superior? Just a thought

[TheLastPrivate]

When Yun Gwan reformed the military and made the Sin Gi Gun, he allowed any men - even low-ranking peasants/slaves, with a horse, to join the reformed cavalry, resulting in a big increase in cavalry force.

[STELLover]

When Yun Gwan reformed the military and made the Sin Gi Gun, he allowed any men - even low-ranking peasants/slaves, with a horse, to join the reformed cavalry, resulting in a big increase in cavalry force.

So what will be the unit balance for Goryeo- Stong All Around? Because all factions have militarical strengths and weaknesses- I do know however, they had good infantry and militia as well as superb archers

[TheLastPrivate]

I'd say strong archers, reliable infantry, and limited cavalry. It would be inaccurate if we portrayed Goryeo like Scotland roster of vanilla M2TW.

Since they have a history of using heavy cavalry, I would say limit the option of cavalry to a few, expensive units but open up a strong variety of archers. Also the sword-wagons should definitely be in the game if modeling allows

I'm thinking a roster that is similar with Georgia/Armenia of BC in terms of roster style, or somewhat similar with the English roster. Or even the CBUR Komnenian roster.

The biggest underlying theme should be: Defensive.

[STELLover]

I'd say strong archers, reliable infantry, and limited cavalry. It would be inaccurate if we portrayed Goryeo like Scotland roster of vanilla M2TW.

Since they have a history of using heavy cavalry, I would say limit the option of cavalry to a few, expensive units but open up a strong variety of archers. Also the sword-wagons should definitely be in the game if modeling allows

I'm thinking a roster that is similar with Georgia/Armenia of BC in terms of roster style, or somewhat similar with the English roster. Or even the CBUR Komnenian roster.

The biggest underlying theme should be: Defensive.

Yeah- the English roster definetly