Ancillaries Discussion

[Augustus Lucifer]

This is where you can discuss everything about ancillaries.

[Augustus Lucifer]

These are from the other dev forum:

I posted this elsewhere as an example, but I think a good idea for a Mongol Ancillary would be:

Qumis Brewer

Qumis was a staple mongol alcoholic beverage, and a qumis brewer could provide a bonus to the morale/command of an army by providing them with hearty drink. It could also come with a penalty to personal security of the general, because drunk troops also mean more likelihood of roughhousing. So I think the entry would be like:

Name: Qumis Brewer
Type: Health -or- Entertain
Excluded Cultures: Middle Eastern, Indochinese, Pacific Asian, East Asian, Central Asian (essentially all except North Asian)
Transferable: No
Effects: TroopMorale +2, PersonalSecurity -1, Health -1
Description: The potent drink Qumis is enjoyed by all mongol kin, and the ability to have it made while marching to war greatly raises the spirits of the troops, but does provide negative health benefits, and drunk troops may not always be ruly.
Ways to Get It: Not sure, possibly staying in a settlement that has a Tavern with a 10% chance each turn, or similar.
Picture: None currently

What are others thoughts about this ancillary?

Yelu Chucai - A Mongol Advisor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yel%C3%BC_Chucai

Here's another ancillary, this one is Korean:

Name: Mudang
Type: Magic
Excluded Cultures: Not sure, all except East Asian?
Transferable: No
Effects: To be determined...
Description: The Korean shaman, or mudang, acts as a mediator between the real world and the spirit world. Most mudang are women, though there are a few men practitioners called paksu or paksu mudang.
Ways to Get It: To be determined...
Picture: See below...

Name: Yang Hui
Type: academic
Excluded Cultures: all except east asian
Transferable: no
Effects: farming +1 trading +1
Description: one of the most important mathmatitian of Chinese history, Yang worked mostly as a minor grain storage keeper for the Song dynasty, but compileds a large amount of work that is one of the most important references for historians today. many of his graphs express important formulas centuries before it was discoverd in Europe. his works also recorded the land prices during his time.
Ways to Get It: owning Lin An or Shao Xing (and probably some academic buildings too)
Picture:

Name: Zhu Xi
Type: academic
Excluded Cultures: all except Song
Transferable: no
Effects: influence +2 piety +2
Description: the most important figure in Neo Confucian thinkings. his interpertation of Confucian text eventually became the standard subject of imperial exams in later dynasties, during the Song, he also rebuild the famous white deer cave academy in Tan Zhou.
Ways to Get It: owning Tan Zhou and influence / piety above a certain area?

Picture:

Name: Hui merchants
type: merchants
excluded: none
effect: +2 trading
descriptions: the An Hui area became the most important financial center of China during the Song, by the end of the Yuan dynasty they were powerful enough to finance a entire kingdom, and were instrumental in the rise of Zhu Yuan Zhang and the Ming dynasty.
ways to get it: owning the Jian Kang Fu area and have the trader upgraded to a certain point

Name: Arab merchants
type: merchants
excluded: none
effect : +3 trading -1 Piety (unless your muslim)
description : the Arabs were the biggest player during the sea trade of this time, and many even settled along the coastal cities of China. espically in Quanzhou and Guang Zhou . even today you can find graves of these early advernturers in those cities. and the mosque they build still stands.
ways to get it: owning those Quang Zhou / Guang Zhou and maybe a few other major sea ports and have ports upgraded to a certain point.

Zhu Xi

This one would be easier to implement in terms of everything you seek to do with it than the other one. We would need to create a "White Deer Cave" building in Tan Zhou as a unique building though, and figure out what bonuses it would provide and such, so I've posted about it in the Buildings Discussion.

Hui Merchants

Another idea that I like. I don't know the nature of these merchants, but if they are like a trading company, then I have a building idea surrounding that.

Arab Merchants

I'm unaware of the nature of arab trade in the area of eastern sea ports. The silk road is obvious and muslim influence was prevalent in Indonesia and Indochina, but what is the background for the trade with the eastern sea ports. Were these merchants just individuals who came bearing goods of the near east to barter with, or was there an established route of trade? Arab Merchants would also obviously exist in the western regions surrounding the silk road, so unless we plan to differentiate the two, there should probably be multiple triggers for different areas.

On the historical background of the two.

Hui merchants

they weren't a real guild or anything, but for various reasons the area ended up being a major financial center in terms of traditional chinese trades.

I guess the major reason is that the Hui area is pretty rich in terms of tradable goods (paper, tea, ceremics etc) and is fairly good access to some of the richest area of China, but itself is rather poor in terms of farmlands (the traditional chinese view of wealth is of course... land and farms) . so there is a major need for commerce and good access and condition to pull it off. (the traditional Hui area doesn't include just Modern An- Hui province, but also Jian Xi province area as well , it is essentially a broad them of the Yangtsi river area North of Guang Dong, west of the coastal area. and east of the Dong Ting Lake area)

The more noted part of Hui merchants is that they tend to be relatively well educated for Merchants. during the S.Song dynasty a LOT of the major scholars were of Hui origins (such as Zhu Xi ) ， so they were also called the "Scholar Merchants"

It's hard to say that they were a offical guild, but it was definately a major financial center. probably the most powerful civilian finacial center within southern China (in the North it's the Shang Xi merchants) .

they really started to gain power during S.Song and the Yuan dynasty, to the point that by the time the Yuan collapsed. Zhu Yuan Zhang, a Hui resident himself. was able to win over China. a good reason behind his success is that he was able to secure the finance of the powerful merchants of the area. so he was armed with the best weapons and had the best capabilities. after his victory the walls of the new capital were entirely financed by the a famous merchant as well.

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Arab Merchants.

Records are scarce, but we do know that Arab merchants did trade with some of the major ports such as Quang Zhou and Guang Zhou. in fact they formed communities and today you can find graves and mosques from those days and there are still muslim communities there. but wether they were a real guild? that's tough to say, though if they actually stationed enough people to form a community and build mosques, then I'd guess they aren't just a few mavrick adventures but more of a common theme.

Name: Lu Jio Yuan
Type: academic
Excluded Cultures: all except east asian
Transferable: no
Effects: +1 influnce +2 piety +1 command
Description: A famous scholar in his own right, he debated Zhu Xi at "the meeting of Swam lake" in 1175. it is perhaps the most important academic debate in Chinese history. most people who participated the event leaned towards Lu as having the upper hand. Lu also founded the Elephant mountain academy. as a Song offical, he was also very active in miltitary considerations, building walls and actively training milita's he himself took up archery since youth.
How to get it: probably having a unique Elephant mountain academy building.

Name: Lu Yo
Type: military
Excluded Cultures: all except east asian
Transferable: no
Effects: +1 influnce +1 command
Description: Famous poet and military advisors. he's poetry focused much on patriotism and also rural life.
How to get it: high loyalty and peity

Name: Fang Cheng Da
Type: religious
Excluded Cultures: all except east asian
Transferable: no
Effects: +1 influnce +1 piety
Description: Famous poet , his work had a strong buddist influence.

Name: Yo Mao
Type: academic
Excluded Cultures: all except east asian
Transferable: no
Effects: +1 piety +1 farming +1 command during seige +1 influence
Description: Famous poet and high ranking Song offical, he was the teacher of the crowned prince, and also governed many major provinces. he was most noted to helping farmers and building reinforced walls during his stations. his work showed strong Daoist influence.

Name: Yang Wang Li
Type: academic
Excluded Cultures: all except east asian
Transferable: no
Effects: +1 influnce +1 command
Description: Famous poet and well accomplished Song offical, he was strongly in favor of going to war against the Jin.

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The 4 guys above are considered "the 4 major poets of S.Song" amoung them Lu Yo is probably the most famous in terms of modern legacy, but he and Fang weren't officals (Lu was a unoffical advisor) , while Yo and Yang were MAJOR MAJOR officals. (Yo is espcially sick, as he passed the imperialexam at the age of 19)

the 4 major poets of Southern Song

尤袤、楊萬里、范成大，陸遊

Trying to figure out some Jin guys to put in.

Name: 武仙 Wu Xian
Type: military
effect: +1 command +1 command of infantry.
avalible to : only east asian
description: a valiant milita leader during the late Jin dynasty, repeatedly organzied militas and defeated Jin troops and participated in several of the largest battles against the Mongols.

Name: 郭蝦嘛 Guo Xia Ma
type: military
effect: +1 command +1 command when defending in seige
avalible to : only east asian
description: the last Jin general to fall during the Mongol invasion, he held out until 3 years after the Jin's offical end. and his garrison fought to the last man when the gates finally broke.

Name: 趙秉文 Zhao Bin Wen
type: diplomatic
effect: +2 influnce (for diplomats)
avalible to: east asian diplomates
description: Jin offical and a well respected poet , he also wrote the majority of diplomatic documents to the Song and Xi-Xia dynasties.

name: 元好問 Yuan Hao Wen
type: diplomate or acaedmic
effect: +2 influence
avalible to : east and north asian
description: a offical of the late Jin who became the leading scholar of the north during the early Yuan dynasty. he' s documents also was the basis for the Yuan dynasty historian on the history of Jin

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Some general suggestion

Name: Dao Shi
type: religious
effect: +1 health, +1 to gunpowder units
avalible to : north, east asian
description: a skilled man in the ways of Yin-Yang and alchemy. they were the first inventors of gunpowders when a experiment of the elixer of life gone awary.

Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (or The Treatise on the Middle Way)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%AB...C4%81rik%C4%81

A treatise on the Sanlun school of Buddhism which was prominent during the Nara period of Japan but by our timeframe would have been absorbed into other schools. Should also be included the other two main treatise', The Treatise on the Twelve Gates and The One-Hundred-Verse Treatise

Sanlun School: Here

The other texts by Nagarjuna are worth considering as well.

did you guys thought about adding anc to capitals in regions ?

other mods have and for each region but due to max of 8 its easily filled up so if it would only be capitals it would be very prestige, as for anc pic it could be something like royal seal in color of the faction

some generic suggestions

Name: Shaman
type: religious
effect: +1 moral on troops, +1 to religion.
avalible to : north asian
description: While the mongols adapted other religions, the old shamans still played a vital role for both the common and the nobles.

Name: onmyōji
type: religious
effect: +1 health +1 religion
avalible to: the two Japanese factions
description: a onmyōji is very much like a Japanese version of daoshi, they defend were said to be able to fight and control demons.

Name: doctors
type: academic
effect: +1 to health +1 to recovery from injury
avalible to: all
description: professional healers are always thought after throughtout history, both in everyday life and espically on the battlefield.

These might not be exactly the kind you had in mind, but they're ancillaries nonetheless.

Name: (Faction) Informant
type: military
Non-transferable
effect: +2 command when fighting against (Faction), -1 loyalty, -5% currency from looting
avalible to: All but pacific asian
description: A traitor can afford generals a great deal of information, at the expense of (the currency) to compensate for his deeds

(Could be acquired be spending a number of turns in one region, and the faction of the informant would be determined by the owner of the region. A different ancillary would have to be made for each faction. I excluded pacific asian because of the bushido.

[Xuande]

It would be nice to have a "Qiu Changchun" ancillary.

Qiu Chuji (Qiu Changchun) was one of the founding fathers of the Quanzhen sect of daoism. Summoned to Genghis Khan's court, he travelled to the far north-west to meet the ageing great khan in his steppe encampment. The Khan asked him what kind of immortality drug he was bringing him, and Qiu answered that although he knew how to protect health he could not lengthen a man's life above what had been set up by fate. The khan enjoyed his answer and kept him in the steppe for a while. Later, he donated him the Baiyunguan, in Beijing, which remains to this day the headquarters of the Quanzhen sect.


So here's my suggestion :

Name: Qiu Changchun
Type: Religious
Effect: +2 health, +1 piety, + bonus on city order
Available to : north, east asian
description: Founder of the Longmen sect of Quanzhen daoism. His doctrine focuses on introspection rather than on messianism, making his disciples particularly quiet. An asset that any ruler should value.
How to get him : Staying in a province with high level of daoism. Ideally only generals with an already high piety should be able to get him.
Can be transfered to another general.


About the Arab merchant ancillary :

Wouldn't it be better to give these ancillary to fleet commanders only ? That would help differenciate between them and Anhui merchants. Anyway, the merchants on the terrestrial silk road were mainly Turks and Persian rather than Arab (Uighur was the lingua franca of the area for trade). Ethnic Arabs mostly used the sea silk road, hence the large communities in Guangzhou (slaughtered during the Huang Chao rebellion in the 9th century) and Quanzhou (still thriving during the Song).

So why not make :
- Arab merchants for fleets (+ 15% movement),
- Uighur or Persian merchant for central Asia (instead of the original "arab merchant")
- Anhui merchant for the South China area.

[Augustus Lucifer]

I've added the Faction Informant ancillaries. The problem with the implementation as suggested is that there isn't a way to determine which faction owns the settlement with regards to an event like CharacterTurnEnd. The one perhaps viable option, plug-ins, can only be used for governor's of settlements.

There's a couple other ways to do it, unless someone finds a way to determine the faction which owns a region in a CharacterTurnEnd monitor.

One way is to make faction buildings and have them build wherever the faction owns, that could probably be looked for. More than a bit gratuitous to take up two building trees for a mere ancillary set though, and you can't hide the building so it wouldn't have much usage in the interface.

Another way involves a truckload of scripting counters to determine who owns a settlement, but then you'd also need to have triggers for each faction and settlement, which isn't viable.

Most practical way probably, is to just tie it to combat with the other faction, since there's more commands to detect enemy faction types when you are involved in a battle with them.

[Syiedthebard]

You're the Man-with-the-plan, Augustus. Me only wittle hewpah.

[Shadowcry]

Name:Shaman (Wu hsi)
Type: Religious
Effect: +1 health, 1+ command,1+ piety, +1 unrest
Available to : north, east asian
description: The political and religious influence of shamans amongst the various peoples of East Asia should not be underestimated. Found not only within Nomadic civilizations, the shaman can integrate into Chinese society. Though several nomadic dynasties have often come under Chinese influence and have become sinicized, the role of the shaman has never been excluded. Under Mongke Khan's reign the shaman was both criticized and lauded, symbolizing the overall relationship with teh nation. Consulted for a myriad of dilemmas the shamans provided judgment based on astrology, divination, the I-Ching for example. However the Shaman is sure to make the more conservative of your advisors worry.
How to get him : Staying in a Provincewith a high level fo Tengriism or staying in a province with a level three tier religious building or higher.
Can NOT be transfered to another general.

[vietanh797]

Ancillaries can be things, right? Like seals, swords, flags...

[Augustus Lucifer]

Yes, people and things primarily, even titles that beg an image. Traits are better when it comes to many areas, whereas ancillaries are mainly just there to be coupled with an image or be considered "retinue".

[KR153]

I´d suggest an "wall falcon" ancillary for both japanese factions. It was common amongst japanese nobles to keep one or more of them for hunting or sheer pleasure. It can be taken away any time since you never could be sure it came back once it was airborne. After all they were not to be domesticated(?) so they stayed more or less on free will.

[Augustus Lucifer]

'Wall Falcon' is a species of falcon? Or is it to describe the fact they had a falcon, on their wall? What sorts of benefits or penalties might it give (personal security?) and what ways could someone get one.

[KR153]

That´s what you get using this online translation progs...
No, "wall falcon" was the translation I got for german "Wanderfalke"....
"Peregrine Falcon" would be another. I´m working on some more info.

[Sultan Nedim]

Name: Marco Polo
type: merchants
excluded: all except east Asian
effect: +2 trading
descriptions: A western merchant has come to the east to trade silk and spices with our kingdom.

[RollingWave]

Heh, I think Marco Polo's effect should be a bit more pronuced than that, but... anyway

The sword of Shang Fang (尚方寶劍) : A blade personally given to you by the emperor to command his army! a item that offer incrediable prestige and inspires loyalty.

effect: +1 command, +1 moral of troops, +2 loyalty.
given to : Song dynasty.
transferable: yes
Req : this is tough one to tell, i guess be in the captial area?

Al al-Din : renown persian siege engineer. recruited to build the counterweight trebuchet during the siege of Xian Yang
effect : +1 command during seige attacks, +50 build points. 10% less cost to recruit seige engine.

Ismail: renown Iraqi siege engineer. recruited to build the counterweight trebuchet during the siege of Xian Yang
effect : +1 command during seige attacks, +50 build points. 10% less cost to recruit seige engine.

(the above two are the guys Kubla Khan got from the mid east to help him seige Xian Yang)

[Sultan Nedim]

we totally forgot the yumi bow

Name: Kyūdō master
type: military
excluded: all except Japan factions
effect: + 1 command, + 1 morale

[KR153]

During the Song dynasty academic officials examinated eagerly thousand years old finds like this ceremonial flagon made of bronze, which is displayed with some additional notes in this catalogue about the emperors collection.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2562/catalogues.jpg

[mirratord]

Monk
Excluded: none
Effect: +1 piety, +1 bonus on city order, +2 loyalty
Description: this man has given up all pleasures of the flesh and has devoted himself to the temples, a ruler who consults such a man must logically be fair and just.
Transferable: Yes
How to get: Build 2 or more religious buildings



Corrupt Monk
Excluded: none
Effect: -1 piety, +1 unrest, -1 command or 5% penalty on trade/tax income, -2 loyalty
Description: this monk has spent too long near the brothels and inns of the city. He has finally succumbed to the temptation and now is an embodiment of sin, such a man at the ruler's side is bound to influence him negatively
Transferable: Yes
How to get: Build 2 or more entertainment buildings with a monk (in a row? so you dont lose the advantages of the monk that quickly)

GongFu Shifu
Excluded: None
Effect: +1 command, +2 to personal security
Description: During his travels, this man has picked up a man well trained in the martial arts and has taken him on has a master
Transferable: No
How to get: travel a lot and a battle or two



and maybe as an easter egg? :

Ruyi Jingu Bang
Effect: +2 command, +2 to personal security
Description: the weapon of the mythical monkey king, Sun Wukong
Transferable: Yes
How to get: Go really far south west

[Augustus Lucifer]

I like them. When you say 'build religious buildings', you mean as a Governor I presume?

[mirratord]

yup, but is the jingubang approved?

[Kara Qalem]

Just something I'll like to bring up when it comes European retinue. Historically speaking the only reason they were able to travel so far east was because of the Mongol invasions. It was only when the mongols became such a terror and ironically set up a safe route to east asia that Europeans seriously considered exploring these parts. And when the mongol empire collapsed (or at least when the Golden Horde and then the Il-Khans converted to Islam) the route to Asia was blocked again.

In trying to make the mod as historically accurate as possible (and if anybody cares) how will the mod represent the conquest of the western steppe or some form of "access" to Europe?

Can only the Mongols access the European retinue or can any other culture as well?

If only the Mongols, will they need to meet special requirements? ("access" or "conquest" of western steppe or owning certain provinces and needed to be a certain size)

I'm sure alot of you would agree that people like Marco Polo and di Carpine are too important historically to be ignored which is why i'm bringing this up. Historically if you could say they're arrival was an event then the mongol empire was the trigger.

[Yelü Dashi]

Marco Polo is not historically important at all to AUH, and there is some debate as to whether he existed at all. The Mongols didn't reach what we we call Europe until around the 1270s, and that certainly didn't mean they transferred 'retinues' to Asia in any number or even at all, plus the fact that AUH ends in 1281. Maybe you haven't got a feel for the real core aims of this mod - it's about bringing East Asia to life. Portraying Europeans and their culture is the last thing we're aiming to do, they have and continue to recieve enough attention from the TW franchise, and other mods as it is.