Weapon Upgrade Removal R.I.P.

[Taiji]

No longer needed. Bad information, reportedly from CA, had led me to create this mod. Since through testing it turns out the weapon upgrade is only worth around +1 to +2 attack it does not upset balance.

[Slon80]

Damn! Iv'e just took the castle with swordsmiths guild!
But seuriosly I think that balanced units are way more important than some shiny swords so I'm gonna use it for sure.
Great work

[Brips]

Weapons can be upgrade in reality.

[Taiji]

I think perhaps if we upgraded from toy weapons to real weapons then +6 would make sense.

[Gaias]

Do units kill faster when you increase unit stats? Couldn't you just exponentially increase the numbers to nullify the bonus in the unit stats? Europa Barbarorum did this because of Rome Total War experience bonus to unit stats.

[Taiji]

Yo Gaias,

I'll try to explain better the problem that I and many others see with the weapon upgrade.

Making attack higher means making experience worth less.

Making armor higher means making armor upgrades worth less.

Making attack high and armor low means fast battles and very little distinction between units.

In upgrading weapons you would only be improving the quality of their manufacture in reality. In swords for example this would result in a tiny increase in cutting power, the main benefit would be that the weapon would stay sharp longer. If we decided that we wanted a very generous 10% boost from our weapon upgrade we would need 60 attack.

Armor upgrades come in +2 levels, the maximum a unit can have is 3x+2=+6. So if we raise the armor base a level to high number then we cannot have units which upgrade from nothing to heavy mail. If armor's base level was set to 20 for example then even if we spent all the upgrades in one shot we would not accurately represent the difference between clothing and leather armor. So let's say we go for a base of 10, it might seem more reasonable that +6 is enough to represent the difference a single upgrade would make but because we have already used all upgrades we'd have to remove all the remaining upgrades after the first one for all units.

So basically yes, in theory we could raise all stats until +6 attack doesn't unbalance units but to do that we'd have to throw away a hell of a lot more than just a pretty weapon upgrade.

Many M2TW mods have already removed the weapon upgrade or never used it - Broken Cresent, Rusichi, Real Combat, etc.

CA broke the weapon upgrade. There is absolutely nothing we can do about it. I think we should remove it.

[Brips]

Yeah you are right:
Thus the physicals changes of weapons are always visible but without the "swords pictures" of the upgrades?
The armours upgrades are always visible physically I suppose?

[Taiji]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. But perhaps you refer to the models and textures, this removal of the upgrade will remove the models and textures for the upgraded weapons.

The work needed to keep the upgraded models and textures but lose the +6 upgrade would be too much for me with my current interests. It involves editing the models themselves to remove the unupgraded weapons. It should be quite straightforward really, as long as the models are consistant with the order of normal and upgraded. Otherwise it would require loading up the textures as well as the model to be able to see whether it was the normal or upgraded weapon.

Ideally the process would go something like this:
Convert model
Edit model
Convert model
(repeat this process 3-4 times for each unit because each unit has 3-4 models for different view distances)
Test

It could be possible to keep MTW2 running while the converting and editing is going on which would reduce the time taken for testing. Also not all units would need to have the upgraded weapon textures.

[Brips]

Thanks!
I like very much the idea, but I prefer to keep the physicals changes of armours and weapons than no "+6".... Thus I will remove your mod until a new version. Good luck!
I can continue my campaign and remove your mod (I saved the files)? because I think "campaign_script" must be restart... In other words, are you sure that it's saved game compatible?

[Taiji]

It certainly seemed to be savegame compatible for me. No crashes or anything like that anyway.

[Overlord.ru]

Sorry,read the thread but didn't get,does your mode also remove upgraded textures for weapon\armor(units will only have tier 1 look,but with increased stats refering to the mod) or the mod just changes the system of the buildings that upgrade units?

[ivanhoex]

is this fully compatible with 6.0?

can you make a version with and without your changes for mass?
i bet it will become quite popular since repman decided not to implement mass changes (have to test that before starting a campaing)

[Butmunkie]

Is there a way I can edit the files so upgrading the weapons on a unit changes the textures used but has no other benefit?

I'm all about balance but it would be a damn shame to see the pretty textures gone for good against the boring ones.

[Tharros]

Thanks for this. I always thought weapon upgrades where a bit over the top...

[Taiji]

@Overlord, it removes the upgrade and all that comes with it.

@Ivanhoex, it doesn't affect mass.

@Butmunkie, yes, the process is outlined in post 8.

@Tharros, a pleasure to be of service

[ivanhoex]

mr taiji thanks for clarifying first,
but as this will be an EDU and repman says dlv official edu doesnt incorporate your changes on mass, maybe this file has the mass changes and maybe not, that was what i was asking. i take your answer as this is official edu with only the free_upkeep and a different edb

another things then:

i think some units of lit are bugged.

their baltic spearmen that look pretty much like peasants with a big shield and an harpoon have 13 attack... is this ok? i mean how much attack will the proffesional lit spearmen have? specially since merc spears have 9 attack...

second: attack animation of lithuanian skirmishers when in melee is like a spear but with swords.
it looks wrong and its probably unfair when dealing with "ballancement" since a different animation type means different speeds, different skeleton, and different damage than short swords

third: lit skirmishers have 4 armor... when they are not wearing any. same goes for lit cavalry

[Taiji]

Well Mr Ivanhoex, I think you'll find this does not include any EDU. It only includes what is listed in the OP.

You're right about some lit units having armor too high thanks for pointing that out, I will class most of them as starting with leather armor. Currently Baltic Spearmen have attack of 10.

I made a thread is discussion about unit balancing: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219603 so any more feedback or questions about it go there please.

[ivanhoex]

Well Mr Ivanhoex, I think you'll find this does not include any EDU. It only includes what is listed in the OP.

You're right about some lit units having armor too high thanks for pointing that out, I will class most of them as starting with leather armor. Currently Baltic Spearmen have attack of 10.

I made a thread is discussion about unit balancing: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219603 so any more feedback or questions about it go there please.

very good sir, i just got lost jumping between all your minimod threads lol

btw... wich one is the one with free upkeep? (not in edu but in edb, i believe )

[Taiji]

Damn, thats a very good point. Thanks for reminding me about the free upkeep! I'll get something done about that ASAP.

[ivanhoex]

hi!

i took the daring step of publishing this here, its a small modification of the EDB published by taiji today (01-19-09).

the only change is in the amount of free upkeep units that you will get.

huge cities get 10 units (cities grow in free upkeep at a rate of 2 units)
citadels get 16 units (four units per level above motte)


@taiji: thanks for everything pal, you are quite a hardworking fella!