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Thread: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

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    Default Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero



    Just as all movies aren’t westerns, all comics aren’t superheroes. Far from it. But superheroes are still one of (if not the) dominant genres in the comic book industry, and by far comprise the major output of our two largest American comics publishers, Marvel and DC. More to the point, it’s the comic book genre I want to focus on here.

    DC’s greatest icon, Superman, one of the handful of fictional characters known throughout the world, no longer seems to be too proud of America. He still finds occasion to mention he fights for truth and justice, but no longer finishes that famous line with, “…and the American way.” Then again, according to the most recent movie, he’s become a creepy stalker and a deadbeat dad, so maybe not openly linking himself to the American ideal isn’t such a bad thing.

    Marvel’s legendary patriot Captain America, in a comic book story published shortly after 9/11 spent a good part of the issue apologizing to the super terrorist he was battling about all of the terrible things America did in its pursuit of the cold war against the Soviets. “(But) we’ve changed. We’ve learned,” he whines. “My people never knew!” Then again, at least ol’ Cap was fighting the bad guy, so maybe there’s still hope.

    Except that In another later appearance, in a different title (same company) Captain America willingly goes along with a government cover-up of a incident that resulted in massive civilian casualties. He not only goes along with it, he doesn’t even bat an eye when asked to do so.

    Then again Cap’s dead now, so problem solved, right?

    Those are but two examples of the slow but steady degradation of the American superhero over the years. The ’super’ is still there, more so than ever, but there seems to be a slow leak in the ‘hero’ part. There’s even a term for it, coined by (I’m not sure who, but it might have been one of two respected comics journalists) either Dirk Deppey or Tom Spurgeon. Folks, we’re smack dab in the midst of the Age of Superhero Decadence. Old fashioned ideals of courage and patriotism, backed by a deep virtue and unshakable code, seem to be… well, old fashioned.

    Full disclosure time. I’m at least partially to blame for this steady chipping away of the goodness of our comic book heroes. In my very first comic series Elementals, first published close to thirty years ago, I was eager to update old superhero tropes, making my characters more real, edgier, darker — less heroic and a good deal more vulgar than the (then) current standard. Elementals was one of the first of what was later dubbed the ‘grim and gritty’ movement in comic books. And to complicate my confession, I’m still proud of much of that early work. At least my crass and corrupted Elemental heroes still fought, albeit imperfectly, for the clear good, against the clear evil.

    What can I say? When I was young and foolish I was young and foolish. In hindsight I should have realized then what is so obvious today. In any industry, especially one as inbred and insular as the comics world, one excess feeds another. Of course we didn’t think of it as excess. We called it stretching the boundaries. Pushing the envelope. Doing a bigger and better car chase in this one than they did in that one. And every other cliche we could summon to our defense. “If they got away with having their hero accidentally kill his opponent in that book, then we’re going to outdo them by having our guy purposely kill someone in ours!” And so on, until today an onscreen (and quite graphic) disemboweling of a superhero’s opponent is not only allowed, it’s no big thing.

    Don’t get me wrong. All is not completely dire in the comic book industry. For the most part superhero stories still involve the good guys battling the bad guys for identifiably good causes. And even in that story mentioned above where Captain America participates in the sinister cover-up, under the pen of the same writer, a few issues later he resurrects a shade of his former self (summons his inner John Wayne if you will) and tells an evil alien invader he’s fighting, “Surrender? Surrender??? You think this letter on my forehead stands for France?” (The letter is an ‘A’ for America, of course.) Good one, Cap.

    Along with many others, I’ve come to the conclusion that we’ve gone too far, but not irreversibly so.

    So, finally to the point of this note. Borrowing some wisdom from the famous parable of the mote in one fellow’s eye, and the whole beam in another’s, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to make any call for our industry to clean up its act, until I’ve first cleaned up my own. I’ve already made some progress down that road. In my run writing the Robin series (of Batman fame), I made sure both Batman and Robin were portrayed as good, steadfast heroes, with unshakable personal codes and a firm grasp of their mission. I even got to do a story where Robin parachuted into Afghanistan with a group of very patriotic military superheroes on a full-scale, C130 gunship-supported combat mission. And in my short run on the Shadowpact series I kept to the same standard (but with less success as several story details were editorially imposed).

    But ’some’ progress isn’t enough. It’s time to make public a decision I’ve already made in private. I’m going to shamelessly steal a line from Rush Limbaugh, who said, concerning a different matter, “Go ahead and have your recession if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I choose not to participate.” And from now on that’s my position on superhero comics. Go ahead and have your Age of Superhero Decadence, if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I no longer choose to participate.

    No more superhero decadence for me. Period. From now on, when I write within the superhero genre I intend to do it right. And if I am ever again privileged to be allowed to write Superman, you can bet your sweet bootie that he’ll find the opportunity to bring back “and the American way,” to his famous credo.

    -by Bill Willingham


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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  2. #2
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    I like that superheroes in comics are markedly less heroic. It's more human, more real for them to be so. That's why I like Alan Moore's works, like Watchmen, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and V for Vendetta, or Jeph Loeb's work in the Batman universe.

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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    I like that superheroes in comics are markedly less heroic. It's more human, more real for them to be so. That's why I like Alan Moore's works, like Watchmen, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and V for Vendetta, or Jeph Loeb's work in the Batman universe.
    I loved V for Vendetta, for this exact reason. Doing something important, in a humanized way. And the Dark Knight, I found, was the only type of batman ive ever liked.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Manoflooks View Post
    I loved V for Vendetta, for this exact reason. Doing something important, in a humanized way. And the Dark Knight, I found, was the only type of batman ive ever liked.
    I didn't see the Dark Knight. But, I did see V for Vendetta.

    Movie spoiler below:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Here's a guy that is basically tortured, burned beyond recognition and turns into a serial killer, murdering anyone and everyone connected with his "unjust" incarceration and subsequent disfigurement. He then kidnaps a young woman, tortures her physically and psychologically until she is finally caught so deeply in the Stockholm Syndrome she'd cut the entrails out of live baby if he asked her to. His final big exit involves blowing up Parliment because of its "Big Brother" stance and negotiating for the murder/execution of his arch nemesis all in some sort of crazy "Freedom" moment that doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.


    That's not much in the way of heroic. It's sort of in the manner of the "anti-hero" very, very much like "The Punisher" except he gets off on duping the populace that have been reduced to sheep by his arch rival. In fact, one could definitely say his introduction of anarchy was his way of destroying the entire life's work of his arch nemesis in the ultimate revenge piece. He didn't do it to free the people - He did it out of vengeance or.. Vendetta.

    I understand some people's fascination with the character. I just don't get why many seem to idolize "what he stood for" because, when you boil it down, he really didn't stand for anything other than vengeance. After all, that IS what the title is all about, isn't it?

  5. #5
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Morkonan View Post
    I understand some people's fascination with the character. I just don't get why many seem to idolize "what he stood for" because, when you boil it down, he really didn't stand for anything other than vengeance. After all, that IS what the title is all about, isn't it?
    In the comic, he's MUCH more of an anarchistic figure, and his actions really do bring out a popular revolution.

    The movie fiddled with it and adapted it to a modern political climate and modern issues; the comic, however, was originally a statement against Thatcherism.

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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    I like that superheroes in comics are markedly less heroic. It's more human, more real for them to be so. That's why I like Alan Moore's works, like Watchmen, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and V for Vendetta, or Jeph Loeb's work in the Batman universe.
    Surely you're not thinking of Roscharch as a less heroic, less black-and-white morality character.

    V -- oh yes another "gray morality" character, right! Blowing up the Parliament is a very gray morality thing.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; January 14, 2009 at 05:45 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Surely you're not thinking of Roscharch as a less heroic, less black-and-white morality character.

    V -- oh yes another "gray morality" character, right! Blowing up the Parliament is a very gray morality thing.
    Considering that no one was there and considering how it wasn't being used anymore it was more if anything meant to symbolize that the UK in the Book has lost its liberty.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Was thinking more of the other characters, but Rorschach also. Rory, while being a very obvious moral objectivist, was one to the extreme, and did horrible things; he was certainly less heroic a hero than those of preceding decades.

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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    I don't know what you mean by less heroic. He was more explicitly violent, which the author above does comment about. But he wasn't less heroic, or less certain of his moral certitude, less determined and committed, than the characters of the previous decades.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  10. #10

    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    The implication that "The American Way" and patriotism is somehow the only right, moral and, well, heroic "way" sort of muddies the point of the article.

    Is the author against the fact that there is no longer a Great American Hero in comic books, or against the fact that comic book heroes are no longer really heroes?

    Because those are two very different things.

    In the real world, the American way is a sort of undefinable gray-area subjective and heavily politicized concept that means different things to different people. A hero that fights for "The Way" would thus also be politicized. And that's a very bad thing, IMO.

    A hero that fights for political issues would stop being a hero for very many people very quickly. "In this issue SuperJoePlumber defeats The Red Rocket and puts Obama in jail. Where he belongs. For being a commie."

    Now, I'm obviously exaggerating, but only to make my point. A hero that fights for a personal agenda instead of universal, um, goodness, I guess, becomes an anti-hero in a way.
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Tchouk View Post
    The implication that "The American Way" and patriotism is somehow the only right, moral and, well, heroic "way" sort of muddies the point of the article.

    Is the author against the fact that there is no longer a Great American Hero in comic books, or against the fact that comic book heroes are no longer really heroes?

    Because those are two very different things.

    In the real world, the American way is a sort of undefinable gray-area subjective and heavily politicized concept that means different things to different people. A hero that fights for "The Way" would thus also be politicized. And that's a very bad thing, IMO.

    A hero that fights for political issues would stop being a hero for very many people very quickly. "In this issue SuperJoePlumber defeats The Red Rocket and puts Obama in jail. Where he belongs. For being a commie."

    Now, I'm obviously exaggerating, but only to make my point. A hero that fights for a personal agenda instead of universal, um, goodness, I guess, becomes an anti-hero in a way.
    I agree with this.

    It's the same thing as what happened in the latest spiderman movie. I don't exactly recall at which point this happened, but I believe he was fighting the sandman or something and just as he makes some heroic leap there's...

    THE AMERICAN FLAG IN YOUR FACE!

    It fills the entire freaking screen and spiderman's pose is one of ultimate corniness at that point. I was like "what the HELL is this supposed to be about". Total random insertion of the american flag? Wtf.

    You know who's a true superhero?

    Lobo.

    Lobo never dies (can't die), Lobo doesn't fight for anything but himself, yet Lobo always manages to mess up the bad guys. He's not emotionally challenged, there is no moral duality present and he never does anything questionable because he's just too damn straightforward to be bothered with coverups and plotting.

    Lobo wins. He's even fought the legendary american comic book heroes and won.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by The Dude; January 15, 2009 at 04:29 AM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    He still finds occasion to mention he fights for truth and justice, but no longer finishes that famous line with, “…and the American way.”
    Superman no longer talks about "the American way" because he is a hero for the whole world now.

    And even in that story mentioned above where Captain America participates in the sinister cover-up, under the pen of the same writer, a few issues later he resurrects a shade of his former self (summons his inner John Wayne if you will) and tells an evil alien invader he’s fighting, “Surrender? Surrender??? You think this letter on my forehead stands for France?” (The letter is an ‘A’ for America, of course.) Good one, Cap.
    So the author of the article doesn't think this is cretinously puerile? "Good one, Cap"? If those are his standards, who cares what he thinks? He clearly doesn't have the mental toolkit needed to understand any kind of art-form.
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    There is no need for America bashing in this thread. American comics are made FOR Americans first of all. That's why "... and the American way" has to be added back to Superman. That's all I'll say by the way of making those statements universal. Yes I believe the American way is best for everyone, but putting that aside at least the American comics should believe so. The fact that they were started in America, and the greatest superhero characters in the world are also American, should be a sufficient inclination towards that direction.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  14. #14

    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    There is no need for America bashing in this thread. American comics are made FOR Americans first of all. That's why "... and the American way" has to be added back to Superman. That's all I'll say by the way of making those statements universal. Yes I believe the American way is best for everyone, but putting that aside at least the American comics should believe so. The fact that they were started in America, and the greatest superhero characters in the world are also American, should be a sufficient inclination towards that direction.
    While I am sure nobody challenges the assertion the American way is the best for everyone (who am I kidding?! ) I'm sure adding back "...and the American way" might have a slightly undesirable impact on sales outside America. Hurting one's profits would be very un-American, don't you agree?
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    adding back "...and the American way" might have a slightly undesirable impact on sales outside America. Hurting one's profits would be very un-American, don't you agree?
    Just as putting sales above character would also be un-American, in exactly the same way. That's the whole point of the article!


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  16. #16

    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Just as putting sales above character would also be un-American, in exactly the same way.
    Dude...you can't be serious. Putting profit before everything else is exactly what has made America so powerful over the centuries. The American dream is about the chance to make money.
    Last edited by Cluny the Scourge; January 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM.
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  17. #17
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    While I am sure nobody challenges the assertion the American way is the best for everyone
    Infact, almost everybody in his right mind does, just as you implied.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Ugh, nationalist y.

    Anyway, Watchmen for example is very much a thorough deconstruction of the rather infantile "costumed hero" genre - and this is nowhere as obvious as in the character of Rorschach, who is an utter and very skillful deconstruction of the "masked vigilante" trope.

    Some people have "issues"; that guy has a "library"...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  20. #20
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Superheroes: Plenty of Super, Losing Some of the Hero

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    There is no need for America bashing in this thread. American comics are made FOR Americans first of all. That's why "... and the American way" has to be added back to Superman. That's all I'll say by the way of making those statements universal. Yes I believe the American way is best for everyone, but putting that aside at least the American comics should believe so. The fact that they were started in America, and the greatest superhero characters in the world are also American, should be a sufficient inclination towards that direction.
    This is a good point, and one I can agree with.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
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