The Grand Rep Whore Debate [Mega Tortas vs. Caradog]

[Viking Prince]

This debate must and will begin.

Gaining reputation is an honorable use of TWC rules for personal enjoyment. The crowns and halos can be a true sign of community support. Many members are proud of the huge panel of crowns and are the awe of all who register and become new members to TWC. There is a practice known to all as Rep Whoring. Some will say this is a worthless activity and others cheer on those who encourage the acquisition of the halos and crowns.

Mega Torgas as the leader of the support should begin with an opening statement.

Caradog as the leader in opposition should then respond with an opening statement for the loyal opposition.

Please post comments to this thread in The Grand Rep Whore Debate [Mega Tortas vs. Caradog] Commentary

Against Rep Farming

Caradog
Soulghast
Manoflooks

Defending Rep Farming

Mega Tortas
Viking Prince
Juno

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

In as much as my esteemed colleague has jumped the gun and initiated hostilities I beg a brief respite so that I may compose myself and issue opening remarks....My apologies Caradog, please indulge me...

I shall post a little later this evening......

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Please merge my posts, thanks.....



Well first off let me thank you’all for taking time out and joining us here today. As most of you know I have very strong feelings toward Rep and various aspects of its presentation and utilization. Originally I wanted this to be kind of a catch all which could focus attention on different aspects of Rep and encourage involvement from any with an opinion on the matter. I see now that that’s not possible here and shall have to be looked at somewhere else.


Having said that I encourage ALL of you with feelings about this for or against to keep them close at hand and hopefully a more appropriate opportunity of expression shall present itself. Now to the business at hand.

It is my belief that Rep Whores {errr….Farmers {PC}} are entitled to the same rights of expression and being as any other TWC member and should not be exposed to contempt or disdain from other members. From the Most High to a fresh Noobie just through the door, EVERYONE is equal when it comes to being worthy of basic respect. Thus I am here today to defend the rights of “Little Generic Joe Willy - Rep Whore”


Hi... my name is Generic Joe Willy and I Love and Live for Rep. TWC is the best place in life because I can come here and feel whole and complete. I beg for sparkly’s in my sig and have made Rep Farming into an art form. For those of you that didn’t know, if you use the Rahl Forum Skin your sparkly’s will shine as never before. Even if I really have nothing to say or show you’all I have my beloved sparkly’s and they make me feel special.

So why do I choose to defend this seemingly unworthy creature???? What harm do they do? What objectionable offence do they commit?

Hence……

1. You find their sigs repulsive & repugnant.. Fair enough I concur….Don’t Read them!!! “If thy eye offend thee……Pluck it out!”

2. They have no business rendering Rep useless. Oh really how so? To them it is the highest commodity known and they sometimes invoke ingenuous & unique methods to acquire it. I myself employ Rep in both teambuilding and community cohesiveness. I sight L’Outremer &TFT Carthage as example. In the forums when I come across a worthy thread, turn of phrase or Video…Cha Ching here ya go. In the case of videos, someone went on the web and took the time to seek them out. Everyone’s time is valuable so I throw Rep as a small way of saying ”thanks for your efforts” Rep to me is a very useful commodity and is just fine as it is.

3. They are hard to distinguish from other far more WORTHY members that have earned their Rep. Really..:hmmm:shame shame on our collective lack of mental acumen and thought process… Bahhh!!!! I shall let my Brethren rip that one to shreds as that’s beyond shooting fish in a barrel……

4. They are unworthy of recognition…I concur … Don’t offer them Citizenship or other posts in site Government or operations…
Yet…:hmmm:.Did it not take some hutzspa and effort to acquire all that Bling??? {All within TOS of course}

I think this is sufficient to get the ball rolling so a parting word from “Little Joe” Why do you hate me???? Why do you seek to persecute and punish me? Your mean and make me feel bad…..


I reserve the right to present other reasons I bring here from Real Life, if I deem it necessary. They are somewhat harsh and would break the amusing aspect of our little get together. So I chose not to employ them at this time…..

[Soulghast]

I don't know if I am permitted to post here, but I will do so anyway. Feel free to delete it though.

Now, on our subject, I have to say that what you said made little sense to me, but I will still try to respond to the best of my ability.

It is my belief that Rep Whores {errr….Farmers {PC}} are entitled to the same rights of expression and being as any other TWC member and should not be exposed to contempt or disdain from other members. From the Most High to a fresh Noobie just through the door, EVERYONE is equal when it comes to being worthy of basic respect. Thus I am here today to defend the rights of “Little Generic Joe Willy - Rep Whore”

Let's just make this one thing clear. No one ever said that members who ask for rep are entitled to less rights or are not allowed to express their opinion. Those members are treated the same as all other members, all I am saying is that repwhoring is pointless, just like the reputation system is pointless in its current state.

Hi... my name is Generic Joe Willy and I Love and Live for Rep. TWC is the best place in life because I can come here and feel whole and complete. I beg for sparkly’s in my sig and have made Rep Farming into an art form. For those of you that didn’t know, if you use the Rahl Forum Skin your sparkly’s will shine as never before. Even if I really have nothing to say or show you’all I have my beloved sparkly’s and they make me feel special.

You come to TWC because you feel "whole and complete" because of a few rep rings? Again, rep whoring is not necessarily that bad, it is just needless, and has to be combated in some way, if the rep system is to have a meaning.

So why do I choose to defend this seemingly unworthy creature???? What harm do they do? What objectionable offence do they commit?

None. See above. I originally joined this to debate whether rep has a meaning in its current state, but it is turning out to be something entirely different.

Hence……

1. You find their sigs repulsive & repugnant.. Fair enough I concur….Don’t Read them!!! “If thy eye offend thee……Pluck it out!”

What? Who said anyone finds the repwhoring sigs "repulsive"? My point is that repwhoring is an entirely useless practice which abuses and renders the rep system meaningless.

2. They have no business rendering Rep useless. Oh really how so? To them it is the highest commodity known and they sometimes invoke ingenuous & unique methods to acquire it. I myself employ Rep in both teambuilding and community cohesiveness. I sight L’Outremer &TFT Carthage as example. In the forums when I come across a worthy thread, turn of phrase or Video…Cha Ching here ya go. In the case of videos, someone went on the web and took the time to seek them out. Everyone’s time is valuable so I throw Rep as a small way of saying ”thanks for your efforts” Rep to me is a very useful commodity and is just fine as it is.

What does that have to do with the topic? What you just described is not repwhoring, and you failed to answer to the point of rep rendered meaningless.

3. They are hard to distinguish from other far more WORTHY members that have earned their Rep. Really..:hmmm:shame shame on our collective lack of mental acumen and thought process… Bahhh!!!! I shall let my Brethren rip that one to shreds as that’s beyond shooting fish in a barrel……

For reasons mentioned above, many spammers, troublemakers, and generally all around horrible posters have an ungodly amount of rep, due to their friends repping them consistently. Rep cannot be an indication of contribution, or anything for that matter. How can you tell if one was repped because of good posts and generally good work or if one was repped by his buddies on a daily basis?

4. They are unworthy of recognition…I concur … Don’t offer them Citizenship or other posts in site Government or operations…
Yet…:hmmm:.Did it not take some hutzspa and effort to acquire all that Bling??? {All within TOS of course}

I personally do not care, and I would not judge a citizenship candidate on repwhoring, but I would encourage him to remove the repwhoring sig. I never said someone was unworthy of recognition due to the fact he is repwhoring, I am only saying that this person's rep, and rep in general means nothing, and is unworthy of recognition. Other possible contributions of the member are worthy of recognition, repwhoring or not.

I think this is sufficient to get the ball rolling so a parting word from “Little Joe” Why do you hate me???? Why do you seek to persecute and punish me? Your mean and make me feel bad…..

No one hates anyone, and no one wants to persecute anyone. I believe we've made this clear by now.

I reserve the right to present other reasons I bring here from Real Life, if I deem it necessary. They are somewhat harsh and would break the amusing aspect of our little get together. So I chose not to employ them at this time…..

Of course, but I do not think that comparing real life to TWC, and internet forum, has any point.

[Manoflooks]

Soulghast covered it well, so I'm adding just what I think should be said.

Hi... my name is Generic Joe Willy and I Love and Live for Rep. TWC is the best place in life because I can come here and feel whole and complete. I beg for sparkly’s in my sig and have made Rep Farming into an art form. For those of you that didn’t know, if you use the Rahl Forum Skin your sparkly’s will shine as never before. Even if I really have nothing to say or show you’all I have my beloved sparkly’s and they make me feel special.

Sure, rep whorers get happy from it. No problem with that. But when you feel happy about cheating a system and finding a loophole for something that is supposed to signify respect and recognition, dont you think that is a little low?

So why do I choose to defend this seemingly unworthy creature???? What harm do they do? What objectionable offence do they commit?

Nothing in paticular, except for undermining a system someone worked on and was made for a specific action, not that.

2. They have no business rendering Rep useless. Oh really how so? To them it is the highest commodity known and they sometimes invoke ingenuous & unique methods to acquire it. I myself employ Rep in both teambuilding and community cohesiveness. I sight L’Outremer &TFT Carthage as example. In the forums when I come across a worthy thread, turn of phrase or Video…Cha Ching here ya go. In the case of videos, someone went on the web and took the time to seek them out. Everyone’s time is valuable so I throw Rep as a small way of saying ”thanks for your efforts” Rep to me is a very useful commodity and is just fine as it is.

As soulghast said, you didnt really answer the question. Yes, if you took the time to find a video someone found interesting or really like, yes, you are deserving. But if you write "you rep me Ill rep you", you arent really that deserving,

3. They are hard to distinguish from other far more WORTHY members that have earned their Rep. Really..:hmmm:shame shame on our collective lack of mental acumen and thought process… Bahhh!!!! I shall let my Brethren rip that one to shreds as that’s beyond shooting fish in a barrel……

Its obvious what they will say, but let me just say that you have a point. But this relates to the above, and also, 1 good post could make you think they are deserving of their rep tails.

I think this is sufficient to get the ball rolling so a parting word from “Little Joe” Why do you hate me???? Why do you seek to persecute and punish me? Your mean and make me feel bad…..

I dont hate you...I just think you are slightly uncivilized.

I reserve the right to present other reasons I bring here from Real Life, if I deem it necessary. They are somewhat harsh and would break the amusing aspect of our little get together. So I chose not to employ them at this time…..

This should be good.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Soulghast covered it well, so I'm adding just what I think should be said.




Sure, rep whorers get happy from it. No problem with that. But when you feel happy about cheating a system and finding a loophole for something that is supposed to signify respect and recognition, dont you think that is a little low?
I'm sorry, I don't follow.... What is a sig? Could you please tell me what happens when I get my fith circle??? What is Tribunal... Who is Garb?? Why does he have that ugly red color??? Confused yet???

Innocense...don't taint it. Why must you paint these poeple as deceptive. Their Farmers...respectful and nothing more.

Who are you to put a monetary value on Rep? Are you from the TWC Mint???


Nothing in paticular, except for undermining a system someone worked on and was made for a specific action, not that.

Undermining a system?? I personaly owe Wr1ght 10 Rep pieces, King Nud as well, that's 20 all together I belive. If you think I'm lying check the commentary thread and Roma Surrectum. Payday in L'Outremer was two days ago but I missed it cause I was preping for this event...

I think that qualifys as underming don't you. So run and go get someone and I'll wait right here . But worn them that I'm gonna be extra Mad by the time they get here cuz my bloodsugar just droped...

a system that some one worked on for a specifc action????

Maybe I should go strip EVERYONE that I gave Rep to for videos over the past month. and get the one from the Kid in TD that I told EXCELLENT thread yestery. And go Jack Capt AArgh for the one I just gave him.

Can I see the TWC Reputation and execution guildeline and handbook please....

Are they Rep police here yet about my 25 Rep fruad and abuse charge for the contest that just finished in Roma Surrectum cuz I really have to do Pee pee....



As soulghast said, you didnt really answer the question. Yes, if you took the time to find a video someone found interesting or really like, yes, you are deserving. But if you write "you rep me Ill rep you", you arent really that deserving,

I'm Rep Farming its the only game we play on TWC. Iduuno am I.....



Its obvious what they will say, but let me just say that you have a point. But this relates to the above, and also, 1 good post could make you think they are deserving of their rep tails.

If their not deserving of their Rep tails who is ???? Is Garb here yet to strip me of Rep and give me a PERMA Ban for fruadulent. Actions.

Oh God forbid I was just thinking of Repping you for they questions...Guess I better not cause I'm in enough trouble already huuh???



I dont hate you...I just think you are slightly uncivilized.

Ya my avatar's a dead guy. That 's kinda warpped to dont you think.



This should be good.

I promise you you really don't wont me to bring what I go through at work into TWC....



Ok my appologies now I come to the point. How do you qualify good Rep from Bad? From your commentary it is plainly derived that I deserve the sack. Let's pick Garb...I don't know him but he seems like analright joe...Please go tell him about our debate and my perdicament and that I would like a full explaination prior to being perma baned. When I looked at tribunal this morning he was in there Kicking major tuccus. He's probably good and mad so this should be a breeze for. him

Between L'Outremer & TFT Carthage there are 13 people I need you to explain things to. There are what like 400 people in red running around here can one of them get sacked to or am I the only one getting the boot cuz I told the truth. I despize Alts...Do I get any credit for that.

Can you see where I'm going with this ????? How is it that you are able to put a quality marker on Rep ??? Like I said If your goona dibarge them you better kic me out first....Cuz I'm far more guilty than any of them.... Bizzare usage of Rep...right hear.

Have you found that guidebook yet that has the sample of permisable Reps?? Which one of your friends is the Puriest user of Rep Can I me him or her before Garb gives me the Boot. Can I see the thread that is currently the most rep worthy. How bout the top five then???

Bottom line your saying that this is purer than that...guess what equals that is Prejudiceial making you a bigot......

Why are you better than me ????? Your mean and you hurt my feelings...

I'm sorry but You can't Quantify or Qaulify Rep. that's why we are here today cuz it should'nt matter how I use Rep.

If It matters you need to throw me out because I don't measure up.......Now and I never will.

The aurgument is subjective, REputation means different things to different people.


Respect....they hate rep whores...Fine I respect that

If they are contemptable in thier abuse of Rep then burn me at the stake because NO ONE else in TWC uses REp in a more bizzare fashion than myself.

Burn them/Burn me or we can all live together as eqauls in terms of

WHO cares what you do with your Allotment of Rep.

[Soulghast]

I decided I shall reply to this too. My previous posts would be excessively large, so I decided to split it.

I promise you you really don't wont me to bring what I go through at work into TWC....

No, I don't. This is a gaming site, I am here to have fun.

Ok my appologies now I come to the point. How do you qualify good Rep from Bad? From your commentary it is plainly derived that I deserve the sack. Let's pick Garb...I don't know him but he seems like analright joe...Please go tell him about our debate and my perdicament and that I would like a full explaination prior to being perma baned. When I looked at tribunal this morning he was in there Kicking major tuccus. He's probably good and mad so this should be a breeze for. him

I mean no offense, but that just makes no sense. Why would you be permabanned?

Between L'Outremer & TFT Carthage there are 13 people I need you to explain things to. There are what like 400 people in red running around here can one of them get sacked to or am I the only one getting the boot cuz I told the truth. I despize Alts...Do I get any credit for that.

No, you told your truth, i.e your opinion. No one is sacked, no one is banned, there is no reason at all.

Can you see where I'm going with this ????? How is it that you are able to put a quality marker on Rep ??? Like I said If your goona dibarge them you better kic me out first....Cuz I'm far more guilty than any of them.... Bizzare usage of Rep...right hear.

We can't really put a quality marker on rep, and that is the problem.

Have you found that guidebook yet that has the sample of permisable Reps?? Which one of your friends is the Puriest user of Rep Can I me him or her before Garb gives me the Boot. Can I see the thread that is currently the most rep worthy. How bout the top five then???

No, no, no. Calm down.

Bottom line your saying that this is purer than that...guess what equals that is Prejudiceial making you a bigot......

Bigot? Me? Manoflooks? How? Why? Where is that alleged prejudice?

Why are you better than me ????? Your mean and you hurt my feelings...

I do not believe anyone meant to hurt your feelings, and no one said that he is better than you. Get that imaginary alleged elitism off your head.

B]I'm sorry but You can't Quantify or Qaulify Rep. that's why we are here today cuz it should'nt matter how I use Rep.[/B]

It should, if you are abusing the system. Of course rep whoring is not, and should not be a ToS violation, but it still renders the system useless, and strips rep of all its worth, for reasons mentioned ad infinitum in this thread. When something is obviously deficient, you should have 2 choices: Either abolish it, or alter it.

If It matters you need to throw me out because I don't measure up.......Now and I never will.

I repeat, no one wants to throw you out. Stop developing false impressions.

they hate rep whores...Fine I respect that
If they are contemptable in thier abuse of Rep then burn me at the stake because NO ONE else in TWC uses REp in a more bizzare fashion than myself.
Burn them/Burn me or we can all live together as eqauls in terms of
WHO cares what you do with your Allotment of Rep.

No one hates you, no one hates repwhores. I disapprove of repwhoring as a practice, and believe it should be combated in some way.

[Каие]

If you're not a part of the debate, don't post and ruin it for others.Can someone tell me the names of the members of each team so I can sort this mess out?

The teams are as follows.

Against Rep Farming

Caradog
Soulghast
Manoflooks

Defending Rep Farming

Mega Tortas
Viking Prince
Juno


All post not by those members have been moved to the commentary thread.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Thank you to our Gracious host for putting us back on track....As I am not a debater I can only follow my minute knowledge of decorum.

I have made the opening remarks and yes I choose levity in regards to a serious subject. Although two people have responded to opening remarks the opposition has not had full run of the floor.

Until such time as the two remaining members of the opposition have had an opportunity to take the floor I ask the other members of my team to please be refrain from further commentary on the floor.

Thank you all for your understanding and I apologize for any disruptions that may have transpired earlier.....

[Viking Prince]

Well Mega Tortas has outlined the broad stokes with great emotion and conviction. My task is to be boring and dry. Not really – it’s my nature and not really my purpose.

What is reputation? For our purposes at TWC it is simply the social evaluation of an individual or a group of individuals. I have a reputation within TWC. It differs from person to person at this site and perhaps from forum to forum within this site.

I can see outward signs of reputation by how others address and post. Some like to use private mail. Others use the personal profile messaging that all can see. Others post points that translate into halos and crowns, but also include a message as to why the rep point was given. These rep points can be anonymous or like me, you can include your TWC identity within the line message.

Citizenship is a form of reputation on this site. Perhaps the most powerful form since it is an admission into a more private club. Anybody can become a registered user. Within the rules, anybody can give and receive rep points. But only those with the highest reputation can be admitted to the citizenship club. We may say that citizenship is for various contributions such as releasing a mod to a published game, for example. But it is really a popularity contest. Rebel6666 recently posted a frustration to the system. He certainly values the reputation of being a citizen.

We also have social groups and friends (which is really a social group) where admission is somewhat by reputation. Belonging to a modification group that is developing or updating a mod certainly confers a level of reputation though membership and contribution.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

VP you have breeched Decorum. The opposition has not yet had full run of the the floor, nor have they yielded it. In my eyes you have insulted the leader of the opposition and that is something I will not tolerate.

My apologies to Caradog and I beg his forgiveness for this breech of common courtesy.

If my team can not show due respect to the opposition I shall proceed in this debate alone.....

[Soulghast]

Well Mega Tortas has outlined the broad stokes with great emotion and conviction. My task is to be boring and dry. Not really – it’s my nature and not really my purpose.

Nice. Getting emotional over something as useless as rep is pointless.

What is reputation? For our purposes at TWC it is simply the social evaluation of an individual or a group of individuals. I have a reputation within TWC. It differs from person to person at this site and perhaps from forum to forum within this site.

There is a difference between "reputation" i.e your standing among other members, and the reputation point system, which is under discussion.

I can see outward signs of reputation by how others address and post. Some like to use private mail. Others use the personal profile messaging that all can see. Others post points that translate into halos and crowns, but also include a message as to why the rep point was given. These rep points can be anonymous or like me, you can include your TWC identity within the line message.

No one argued that rep can't be used in a good way, and that someone can't actually deserve his rep, but an abuse of the system, repwhoring, prevents it from actually having a meaning. That is why I oppose repwhoring. If the rep system cannot be arranged in a non-abusable way, then I would favor abolishing it, as it serves no purpose in its current state.

The rest of your post didn't really have much to do with the topic, so I decided not to reply to it.

[Viking Prince]

..

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Will our Moderator please remove posts #10 & #11 from the debate.

Thank you . Again my oppologies...

[Juno]

Is it my turn, yet, to verbally assault these gentlemen?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Is it my turn, yet, to verbally assault these gentlemen?

Do your worst then get out of my way....Your late BTW...

[Juno]

Quite frankly, this is just another case of people taking their community too seriously. The tags, being another fine example of this.

Why is it that people cannot exploit website features for their own amusement without treading on malicious waters?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Please find enclosed below...Yet again another copy of the Opening Post....I include this for Soulghast's{LVB} bennefit and as reference....At his behest to get to the meat & potatos of this shin-dig I roll right up the back of my teamate Juno and blow right past Caradog who has as of yet has been detained and is unable to jion us.

This debate must and will begin.

Gaining reputation is an honorable use of TWC rules for personal enjoyment. The crowns and halos can be a true sign of community support. Many members are proud of the huge panel of crowns and are the awe of all who register and become new members to TWC. There is a practice known to all as Rep Whoring. Some will say this is a worthless activity and others cheer on those who encourage the acquisition of the halos and crowns.

Mega Torgas as the leader of the support should begin with an opening statement.

Caradog as the leader in opposition should then respond with an opening statement for the loyal opposition.

Please post comments to this thread in The Grand Rep Whore Debate [Mega Tortas vs. Caradog] Commentary

Against Rep Farming

Caradog
Soulghast
Manoflooks

Defending Rep Farming

Mega Tortas
Viking Prince
Juno

If I understand him correctly Soulghast{LVB} has told me the following.......

1. There are no leaders here.
2. This is not a Team debate.

You'all please direct your focus and attention to the above OP written by the esteemed VP, NOT me.

point 1......If youall run your finger half way down please note two mentioned Leaders. One for each side.

point 2.....If you'all run your finger bout half-way down, please note the separate designations of two teams. I will now elaborate on this point....

When I formed this event I had to give my word as to personal conduct and group action.{You better keep your three ring circus in line, I quote "KEEP IT CIVIL"} When the streakers and other early distractions occured although it was not initiated by me{I thought it was funny "As all get out" BTW}our Gracious Host was not amused and was placed under unwarrented burden. I took responsibilty and relinquished the lattitude and flexibity I had petioned for when I organized this event.

I also relinguished rights to two of my team members that I had given my solem vow to and hense betrayed them. They are sitting in the stands now wondering why I betrayed them and stuck a knife in their backs....

The point being I put this thing together and I'm quite sure that it is a Team Debate. Soulghast{LVB}...You were invited here and evidently feel that it's worthwhile staying. I concur completley, this event would not nearly as meaningful{Pithy... Sorry.. Private Joke} without out your presence here today.

However you are sadly mistaken if you believe you are in position to dictate the terms of this event. In compromise to your strong feelings for expediency and independence we have proceeded and the team format is thus shattered. I release your side of team obligation however I retain rights over my team and if they are not so inclined they shall be removed from this debate.......

There I'm glad we were able to clear those little points up. Now we can really get the ball rolling.....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The folowing are Soulghast's{LVB} reactions to my opening remarks as I understand them. If I misquote/interprete please correct me with impunity........

1. Soulghast{LVB} states Rep is pointless. It currently is without meaning.......

This will be the last presentation of this document and will be cited as point #8.

2. Soulghast{LVB} asks how can a rep Whore feel whole because of a few rings or crowns?

You would be surprized how someone with low self estem due to tragic RL circumstances can come here and find warmth and solace. I pray NO ONE reading this has to experiance abuse, Alcholism, drug addiction, etc. {I would really prefer not to get into specifics unless I absolutley have to for points of clarity.}

3. Soulghast{LVB} joined the debate to see whether Rep can retain appreciable meaning meaning in it's current state. Tortas has failed to answer the point of Rep being rendered useless.

Rep already has depth and appreciable meaning here at TWC. As I have cited earlier Rep is inturpretted by each member as they understand it however a concensus of value and usage in all probabilty may never be attained. I will cite personal positive asspects of Rep in combination with point 1. and will present them as the last point of this document.

Rep is rendered useless: Reputation is a concept embraced by the some 40,o00 odd members of TWC ranging from total and complete acepptance as a positive force to absolute repugnance so severe that the mention of Rep would start a heated arquement. In between these two extremes is indifference which in actuality is probably the aspect of a simple majority of TWC members.

Reputation being rendered useless by devaluation is probably the view of only a small number of well learned TWC Members...
.
4. Soulghast{LVB} wanted to be able to determine how and why{quality-wise} some-one was repped.

Due to complete member outrage you would have to shut down this sightdown if ristrictive, measurable quality only restrictions were placed on Rep. Plus GED and the entire tech & support divisions enmass would decend on the responsible parties address and take it out with a baby nuke. I can only imagine the technical hassales of this as being unimaginable.

5. Soulghast{LVB} would not judge a canidate for Citizenship negatively in regards to status as a current or former Rep Whore as long as they conducted themselves in the "Proper" manner.

It DEEPLY saddens me and and with great reluctance I am pressed to say this but "I do not belive you are currently in pocession of sufficient objectivity in this regard" due partly to the composition of our breif encounters plus everything I have read by your authorship in the goverment archives and personal posting history. Sadly your demaner demonstrates appreciable prejudices in this regard. I would challenge anyone viewing these proceedings to read the aforemented docouments with nuetral objectivity and clear consiece and arrive at ANY other conclusion.

Please understand this is NOT a personal attack but a very reluctant OBJECTIVE response to one of your statemnts entered by you here, willingly and without cohersion or outside influence in this debate. If contrary evidense can be accured I will accept tribunal and automatic suspention of rights for instagating a PERSONAL ATTACK against a TWC Memeber.

Let this be entered into the record IMEDIATELY and with AUTOMATIC punitive action taken against me in Tribunal if I am found in error and without capacity to defend statement #5. of this document within a timely yet constructive and reasonable period of time.

Respectively,

Mega Tortas Grim,Esq.




6. Stated by Soulghast{LVB}...No one hates anyone and no one wants to percecute any one. Soulghast{LVB} believes this would have been made clear by now.

I have personally seen prejudice here at TWC although it is subtle and not considered orvert by the common TWC member. But once my example goes from example to siting concrete instances and situations it's comeplexity and depth swells. I believe it is best that we place this point to the side for the moment. If more sublte and less harsh evidence can be mustered I will renter it into this debate.

I place this point on the floor, accesible to both teams, however personally I would prefer we move on and set proving this point to the side at this time.


7. Reaction to my last statemnet in bold red letters. Soulghast{LVB} states.. "Of course but I do not think that comparing real life to TWC, and an internet forum has any point."

In regards of illustrating the positive affect TWC can have on some one with unfortunate life curcumstances it is VERY pertenent. In illustrating the negative effect a bad experiance here at TWC can have on a member with a fraile RL constitution it is also quite pertainnet. I would really prefer if we try and stay away from getting deeply into this because of it's blunt and harsh content.


8. I will now provide examples from my time at TWC showing that Reputation is one of the best working assets we have here.

1. Teambuilding : L'Outremer & TFT Carthage. I am afiliated with both of these projects. With L'Outremer wev'e recently assembled a team and gotton up a decent head of steam. As Rep is the currency availbe at TWC I use it in conjunction with personal encouragemnet to forge us into a united and productive team. Also as a moral biulder. If you click on my signature it will take you there and you can see some of the great, quality progress the team is making. Stop by and talk to the guys and ask them all the questions you want. While your their ask them what "Payday" is.......

I can't provide a better example than L'Outremer......I'm Beyond proud of them. go check it out and see for yourself.... Oh yeah...TFT Carthage....Don't pay any attention to them.Their a buch of vertran Rep Whores that do nothing but suck all my Rep dry. Stop in and check it out for your self. It's probably the Flagship RTW Roleplaying theater on this site. Cha Ching.

2. as a motivational tool: I just had a conversation with Wr1ght in the commentary thread. Read it. Wr1ght won the most recent RTW contest I sponsored in Roma Surrectum.


3. I can go on ALL night with these type of examples but I'm tring to give you guys a break. If you want more of this just say the word.


4. Rep is subjective....Some hate it some love it. that is NOT going to change.

5. I'm here defending Rep at great personal expense. I spent two days on invites, I begged, pleaded & promised just to secure this venue. I also BETREYED two people in the audience. I think it's safe to say that Reputation has value and meaning at TWC.

If you need me to I can go on talking about this aspect ALL night.
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Now that I have responded to my opponents specific responses I would like to adress my Central point & theme.... I promise it will be in parragraph form, Brief {for me} and not as boring as the above........

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Please merge this post, thank you......



If Caradog does not present by daybreak, Please feel free to replace him. If he returns to claim his spot. It must be petitioned thru our Gracious Host in as much as I have relinquished that aspect of flexibility due to the earlier misunderstanding.

I have no objection to the opposition growing to 4 or 5 members if they so choose. However these adjustments must be made thru the aforementioned petition. If your team grows to 5 members and Caradog returns, it would be his right to automatically claim the Fifth slot.


I stand confident in the cohesiveness of my team and request NO such augmentation.

Additionally the field of play now includes ALL aspects and concerns regarding Reputation. The Commentary Thread is profoundly encouraged to provide feedback as they are an extention of the deabate floor and in as much as the fact that this topic Affects every TWC member.

[Soulghast]

If I understand him correctly Soulghast{LVB} has told me the following.......

1. There are no leaders here.
2. This is not a Team debate.

Let me remind you that the OP was written by Viking Prince, before the details were even sorted out, and he himself proclaimed the leaders of the 2 opposing sides. I am not bound by his post, so it basically means nothing. And no, you didn't understand me correctly. It is a team debate but that "team" is only formed because the people comprising it have similar views on the matter. It is no one's obligation to operate as a team, or have any special plan or leadership. You can do that if you want, but in such cases, it is pointless. Any combatant should be able to reply whenever they wish to whatever they wish, as long as the debate is still ongoing. Using a weird cycle system only serves to slow down the debate. Oh, and don't try to make your points look any more valid by drawing weird analogies as you have done previously.

When I formed this event I had to give my word as to personal conduct and group action.{You better keep your three ring circus in line, I quote "KEEP IT CIVIL"} When the streakers and other early distractions occured although it was not initiated by me{I thought it was funny "As all get out" BTW}our Gracious Host was not amused and was placed under unwarrented burden. I took responsibilty and relinquished the lattitude and flexibity I had petioned for when I organized this event.

You didn't really organise anything. Arranging a debate is trivially simple as long as there are interested members.

I also relinguished rights to two of my team members that I had given my solem vow to and hense betrayed them. They are sitting in the stands now wondering why I betrayed them and stuck a knife in their backs....

I don't understand what you're saying. But something tells me that is pretty much irrelevant.

The point being I put this thing together and I'm quite sure that it is a Team Debate. Soulghast{LVB}...You were invited here and evidently feel that it's worthwhile staying. I concur completley, this event would not nearly as meaningful{Pithy... Sorry.. Private Joke} without out your presence here today.

I was not invited, I accepted a debate challenge. There is a difference.

However you are sadly mistaken if you believe you are in position to dictate the terms of this event. In compromise to your strong feelings for expediency and independence we have proceeded and the team format is thus shattered. I release your side of team obligation however I retain rights over my team and if they are not so inclined they shall be removed from this debate.......

You are the one who believes he is in a position to dictate the terms of the debate. Oh, and I would strongly oppose you removing other debaters because they aren't doing exactly as you say.

There I'm glad we were able to clear those little points up. Now we can really get the ball rolling.....

We didn't really clear up anything, but fine.

The folowing are Soulghast's{LVB} reactions to my opening remarks as I understand them. If I misquote/interprete please correct me with impunity........

Plenty of "corrections" coming I'm afraid.

1. Soulghast{LVB} states Rep is pointless. It currently is without meaning.......

This will be the last presentation of this document and will be cited as point #8.

2. Soulghast{LVB} asks how can a rep Whore feel whole because of a few rings or crowns?

You would be surprized how someone with low self estem due to tragic RL circumstances can come here and find warmth and solace. I pray NO ONE reading this has to experiance abuse, Alcholism, drug addiction, etc. {I would really prefer not to get into specifics unless I absolutley have to for points of clarity.}

So your point is, that people who have experienced problems in their RL can find "warmth and solace" on an internet side, because of fake recognition and pixels depicting silly crowns, given by people you didn't even know for no real reason? I am sorry you had to go through all that crap in your RL, but it is completely irrelevant and probably does not apply to most of the TWC members. So I will just ignore this. And please, do not bring up your RL problems in this debate.

3. Soulghast{LVB} joined the debate to see whether Rep can retain appreciable meaning meaning in it's current state. Tortas has failed to answer the point of Rep being rendered useless.

Rep already has depth and appreciable meaning here at TWC. As I have cited earlier Rep is inturpretted by each member as they understand it however a concensus of value and usage in all probabilty may never be attained. I will cite personal positive asspects of Rep in combination with point 1. and will present them as the last point of this document.

No, rep has no meaning. It does not matter at all. Prove that it does, without telling me how it gives you "warmth and solace". What you are doing now is defending an abuse of the rep system, which is the exact reason that rep is useless. Anyone can get rep by rep farming, so it cannot be an indication of a member's quality nor popularity. There are horrible spammers who have huge amounts of rep, just because their friends are repping them.

Rep is rendered useless: Reputation is a concept embraced by the some 40,o00 odd members of TWC ranging from total and complete acepptance as a positive force to absolute repugnance so severe that the mention of Rep would start a heated arquement. In between these two extremes is indifference which in actuality is probably the aspect of a simple majority of TWC members.

Reputation means absolutely nothing in the citizenship rank and above , and to most serious members who have spent some time here. Most members do not care at all, so that 40,000 figure you are presenting is misleading.

Reputation being rendered useless by devaluation is probably the view of only a small number of well learned TWC Members...
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4. Soulghast{LVB} wanted to be able to determine how and why{quality-wise} some-one was repped.

No, I didn't want to be able to determine why someone was repped. I only said that determining is technically impossible, and since there are many members who have done nothing for the community, having tons of rep due to rep whoring, it cannot really be a factor on anything. What I want from the rep system is to become non-abusable, so it can actually have a meaning. If that cannot be accomplished, there is no reason to keep it around, so I would heavily favor abolishing it.

Due to complete member outrage you would have to shut down this sightdown if ristrictive, measurable quality only restrictions were placed on Rep. Plus GED and the entire tech & support divisions enmass would decend on the responsible parties address and take it out with a baby nuke. I can only imagine the technical hassales of this as being unimaginable.

No. See above.

5. Soulghast{LVB} would not judge a canidate for Citizenship negatively in regards to status as a current or former Rep Whore as long as they conducted themselves in the "Proper" manner.

It DEEPLY saddens me and and with great reluctance I am pressed to say this but "I do not belive you are currently in pocession of sufficient objectivity in this regard" due partly to the composition of our breif encounters plus everything I have read by your authorship in the goverment archives and personal posting history. Sadly your demaner demonstrates appreciable prejudices in this regard. I would challenge anyone viewing these proceedings to read the aforemented docouments with nuetral objectivity and clear consiece and arrive at ANY other conclusion.

Huh? Sufficient objectivity in what regard? Judging a citizenship candidate? Excuse me, but I do not believe you, of all people, are able to objectively judge my job as a CdeC councilor, as the vast majority of CdeC posts are hidden.

If you are talking about my views on that matter, yeah, you could say I am biased, as I hold my own opinion on this matter, and I debate for it. And that's what everyone does. You too.

If you meant something else by that, I would like you to present examples of my alleged prejudiced posting. You make the accusations, now you will have to present evidence. Though that seems more like you running out of arguments and trying to discredit me in your own, weird way.

Please understand this is NOT a personal attack but a very reluctant OBJECTIVE response to one of your statemnts entered by you here, willingly and without cohersion or outside influence in this debate. If contrary evidense can be accured I will accept tribunal and automatic suspention of rights for instagating a PERSONAL ATTACK against a TWC Memeber.

Nothing you said is against the rules, but it has almost certainly nothing to do with the debate.

6. Stated by Soulghast{LVB}...No one hates anyone and no one wants to percecute any one. Soulghast{LVB} believes this would have been made clear by now.

I have personally seen prejudice here at TWC although it is subtle and not considered orvert by the common TWC member. But once my example goes from example to siting concrete instances and situations it's comeplexity and depth swells. I believe it is best that we place this point to the side for the moment. If more sublte and less harsh evidence can be mustered I will renter it into this debate.

By all means, do it.

7. Reaction to my last statemnet in bold red letters. Soulghast{LVB} states.. "Of course but I do not think that comparing real life to TWC, and an internet forum has any point."

In regards of illustrating the positive affect TWC can have on some one with unfortunate life curcumstances it is VERY pertenent. In illustrating the negative effect a bad experiance here at TWC can have on a member with a fraile RL constitution it is also quite pertainnet. I would really prefer if we try and stay away from getting deeply into this because of it's blunt and harsh content.

If you want your life to get better, go outside, in the real world, and do your best. TWC isn't going to help in that regard. And I doubt that many members have the same problem and visit TWC for the same reasons you say you do.
I would actually say that most, including me, come for fun. Again, other real life references only serve to mislead the reader, so I would prefer you to keep them to yourself, or at least out of this debate.

8. I will now provide examples from my time at TWC showing that Reputation is one of the best working assets we have here.

No it isn't, as it is abused. Period. And I never said that rep cannot be used in a meaningful way in some occasions, I only said that it can't really be an indication of anything, because of repwhoring.