[Faction Discussion] Kara Khitan Khanate

[Augustus Lucifer]

Kara Khitan Khanate

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Kara Khitan Khanate faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[Yelü Dashi]

To avoid duplication (and save TWC's server) I would suggest reviewing BC's thread on the Khitans, lots of useful source material and ideas.

[Xuande]

Regarding the KK capital city, Balasaghun :

I have visited the ruins of Balasaghun in July 2006. Apart from a (renovated) minaret (see http://www.freebase.com/view/en/balasagun ) almost nothing remains of the town. However, one can still distinguish the outlines of the city walls under the grass (climbing up the minaret helps), which gives an idea of the size of the town before its downfall.

What I infer from this little experiment is :

1 - The town was walled ,

2 - It was quite small.
Obviously, I did not measure the intra-muros surface, but from what I saw, I would say that it was at least three or four time smaller than the roughly contemporary Uighur city of Gaochang (which is rumored to have harboured about 30 000 people at his height). Therefore I guess that the intra-muros population of Balasaghun could not have been very large (if the visible remains of the town do reflect its population at the time of the Liao, I can't believe that more than 10 000 could permanently live there).

Also, given the small size of the intra-muros area and the architecture of the minaret, I guess that the town was built in solid material (bricks, earth). As a matter of fact, the surface needed to accomodate a yurt camp like in Karakorum would have been huge (I've also visited Karakorum and although nothing remains of the town apart from its monastery, I can tell you that the surface of the yurt camp was HUGE). So the core of Balasaghun was certainly not a yurt camp and the town probably looked like a typical oriental / central asian town, with narrow lanes and a small palace).

Therefore, in the mod, I guess :

- the KK capital (Balasagun) province should either have a low agriculture potential preventing any unrealistic population growth, either be represented as a "castle" rather than by a town (but then, the KK would need to be allowed to build markets in castles, in order to render the commercial prosperity of these minor silk road towns).

- it should have some (earthen) city walls.


This being said, I wonder where the Kithan housed their Naiman allies ... Did they camp in yurts around the town walls ? Did they lived a nomadic life across the Kithan lands and only gathered for war ? Did they possess a specific fief ? I have no idea.

[Yelü Dashi]

Unfortunately Balasaghun is not featured on our map, which cuts the Khitan's lands roughly in two. Your description of the city is interesting, although I was under the impression that Kara-Khitans sometimes parked their 'tent cities' outside of the actual city walls, unlike under the Liao where a section within the city would be demarcated for the noble's camp.

The lack of the western and central parts of the Khanate means they will recieve significant economic boast through the King's purse and possibly in other ways, to represent the trade generated from these lands.

We have given the Naiman their own single province, in line with the 'rough geography' of where nomad tribes were located at the time (we have done the same for Tatar, Kirghiz etc), this is outside of the Khitan's territory. We will elaborate on the planned system of how the different steppe peoples will interact etc, probably when we preview the Mongol Khanate.

[Tail End Charlie]

Yelu, what's happening with your work on the KK for BC? Are AUH and BC sharing that faction's skins?

[Yelü Dashi]

Yes, for sure (assuming BC 2.0 is still on the cards ). Same for the Mongols, though their roster will be greatly expanded upon for AUH.

[Shadowcry]

Is this faction practically completed for this mod?

[jalen911]

I think "Kara Khitan Khanate" is not right. First it's not a Khanate, because it found by Yelu Dashi(...not Yelü Dashi ^^) who is a aristocrat of Khitan's Liao dynasty. Liao dynasty was destroied by Jin and Song's united army. And he escaped and found a country which you guys call "kara khitan khanate",but he still named thy contry "Liao" and call himself emperor. In chinese history, we call it "Xi Liao"(Xi=western). In my opinion, just name this country "Liao"

[Augustus Lucifer]

The name is a reflection of the state of the faction at the time it is being represented. The name "Liao" for the dynasty founded by Abaoji was not ascribed by him to the dynasty, but was rather dubbed as such later, the significance being the acknowledgement of the Khitan Emperor as 'brother' of the Chinese Emperor, solidified by the Treaty of Shanyuan.

During the time of our mod, the initial sedentary demographic of the Khitan population had been uprooted by the Jurchen, as well as their association with China(excepting cultural aspects). When they displaced the Kara-Khanids and Uyghurs, they maintained many of the same policies as the earlier Liao, but also embraced central asian customs, and nominally held titles of significance in both Chinese and Turkic cultural understanding. One such title, that of Khan/Khagan/Gurkhan, is attributed to the separation from the legitimacy previously acknowledged of Khitan Emperors, to signify this new phase in their history. As such they are referred to as a "Khanate", due to their location in the central asian steppe, this title would hold the most relevance to the sedentary population.

[jalen911]

Anyway, I just want to play this game ^^! thanks your reply !

[Kabudhan]

How will the territories be distributed to the Kara Khitai in the Uighur regions, as I noticed that the Kara Khanids are not a faction. Will the Kara Khanids be vassals, or will the Khitai control all of the regions? I must admit I'm unsure of their status at this time - were they even that unified (the Khanids, that is)?

Cheers

[Augustus Lucifer]

How will the territories be distributed to the Kara Khitai in the Uighur regions, as I noticed that the Kara Khanids are not a faction. Will the Kara Khanids be vassals, or will the Khitai control all of the regions? I must admit I'm unsure of their status at this time - were they even that unified (the Khanids, that is)?

Cheers

The Khanids were to my understanding somewhat autonomously controlled by the Khitans who also exercised control over the Uighurs in the region. It's a confusing correlation because the names of the two sound very similar so I've seen instances of them being almost completely overlooked by some historians, even though they are entirely different in origin. At any rate they won't control land but there is likely to be considerations made for their demographic of the Khitan lands.

[Marcion]

Some cursory research shows that Yelu Dashi and the western Liao were actually nowhere near your map during the mod's time period. That area was occupied by the Uighur khanates, who were the vassals of the Khitans, but I don't think you could go so far as to say they were the same entity.

The Kara-Khitan Khanate, though harsh on the Muslim Turks, did not dispossess all of the Kara-Khanid domains. Instead, the Khitans (most of them were actually Naimans, Tanguts and Karluks speaking the same Turkic language as the Kara-Khanids) retreated to the northern steppes and had the Kara-Khanids act as their tax-collectors and administrators on Muslim sedentary populations (the same practice was adopted by the Golden Horde on the Russian Steppes).

It sounds like they were more like tributary states, and although some rulers were Muslim, it seems that the Khitans were forcing as much of the populace to convert to Buddhism as they could. Interesting situation. I guess you'll be taking some creative license?

I also took a trip to western China about four years ago and posted the pics here. I don't know how much help they would be, but if there's anything a tourist in the region would know that you need...

[Augustus Lucifer]

Different maps place them at differing dominions, but in the same general area. Cartography of steppe boundaries is essentially trying to pass a modern notion, that of centralized nations, and apply it to history. It's likely that the regions which the Khitans held sway in were far more autonomous then say, the Jingnan province was from Song rule. Due to the fairly short time the Khitans held power in the region though there's little information to go on concerning just how Central Asia operated in those years before the Mongol conquests.

But yes we are using some creative license in their positioning on our map. We don't assume they have full governance of the regions they occupy in and around Beshbaliq, at least not in the Chinese sense. In fact leading up to our start date there's a lot of uncertainty about the stability of the Khitan state, as it gradually fell into disrepute after Dashi died. But what fun would it be if there weren't any challenges to overcome.

One thing that does appear to be accepted is that Dashi intended to regain the lands lost by the Liao but never really had the opportunity. A renewed Khitan state looking east again doesn't seem like that far-fetched of a historical scenario, barring the events preceding the Mongol onslaught.

[Marcion]

Well, call it what you want, but bear in mind that the eastern Tarim Basin (the area your map has the Khitans occupying) is not the steppe. It's an extremely dry, arid desert, one of the hottest on earth even. That's probably why the Khitans moved away to greener pastures, and left the natives to their land. A large population of nomads couldn't hope to have some kind of persistent presence there due to the climate.

So I guess as far as the game goes, I'd go with some especially hardy nomads as elite cavalry, maybe some light native horsemen "inspired" by the steppe tribes and the old ways of the Uighur. But most of their army would be made up of the sedentary Buddhist/Muslim populace.

[Marcion]

More research in medieval Tarim (an overall map of the region)

The Uyghurs established a Kingdom in Turpan (known as the Uyghuria Idikut state or Kara-Khoja Uyghur Idikut Kingdom) that lasted from 856 to 1389 AD, surviving as a vassal of the Mongol Empire. This Kingdom, led by Idikuts, or Saint Spiritual Rulers, was established after the fall of the Uyghur Empire to the Kyrgyz Turks. Last Idikut left Turpan area in 1284 for Kumul, then Gansu to seek protection of Yuan Dynasty, but local uyghur Buddhist rulers still held power until Invasion of Moghul Hizir Khoja in 1389. Convertion local buddhist population to Islam was completed nevertheless only in the last half of XV century.

...

A branch of the Uyghurs migrated to oasis settlements of Tarim Basin and Gansu, such as Gaochang (Khoja) and Hami (Kumul) and set up a confederation of decentralized Buddhist states called Kara-Khoja. Others, occupying western Tarim Basin, Ferghana Valley, Jungaria and parts of Kazakhstan bordering the Muslim Khwarazm Sultanate, converted to Islam no later than 10th century and built a federation with Muslim institutions called Kara-Khanlik, whose princely dynasties are called Kara-Khanids by historians.

I've found a couple of places where it suggests that the Uighur populations around modern Xinjiang and Gansu were actually distinct from both the Kara Khitan and Khara Khanid, both of whom lived to the northwest. The Kara Khoja remained Buddhist (or maybe Manichaean) for several centuries after the the Seljuk migration, and seemed to have been mostly free of the tribal feuds that plagued the steppes.

There's close to a hundred Buddhist grottoes scattered around the area. I couldn't find the exact numbers as far as when the ones in Xinjiang were occupied, but I know the one near Dunhuang in Gansu has been occupied to some extent up to the 15th century, from whence can be found some depictions of the Uighur nobility:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The cities of Jiaohe and Gaochang, which I have visited, were prominent centers of trade (and religion by way of the nearby grottoes) which were probably inhabited up to the point when Gaochang was burned in the 14th century. They were both walled, and Jiaohe was built on high ground like a fort, but I don't know of any big battles that occurred at either one in this timeframe. The Uighur khans immediately submitted to Genghis when he rose to power too, so this may very well have been the nicest place in Asia to be on the eve of the Mongol invasion.

[Yelü Dashi]

Marcion - wanted to respond to a few of your points. The map and the quote you posted are pretty unreliable (never trust Wikipedia!)

it seems that the Khitans were forcing as much of the populace to convert to Buddhism as they could. Interesting situation. I guess you'll be taking some creative license?

This claim has been proved incorrect. Muslim scholars and their legal system flourished under the Qara-Khitan's, evident in the Burhan family from Bukhara. They made prominent Muslim leaders their tax collectors and funded momumental buildings such as the minarets in Vabkent and Burana. Many of the elite Khitans were still Shamanists, even Nestorian Christians as well as practising Buddhism.

From Michal Biran’s work, it is evident that travellers from the West to the region 'completely ignored' Khitan rule (even though coinage attests to it) and thus this is 'most striking illustration of the freedom and authority given to Islam'. She thinks that the imported Chinese-Liao tradition acted in the same way Islam did in other places, providing a shared identity, a form of stateship and legitimization.

I've found a couple of places where it suggests that the Uighur populations around modern Xinjiang and Gansu were actually distinct from both the Kara Khitan and Khara Khanid, both of whom lived to the northwest. The Kara Khoja remained Buddhist (or maybe Manichaean) for several centuries after the the Seljuk migration, and seemed to have been mostly free of the tribal feuds that plagued the steppes

When the Uighurs left their Mongolian homeland after the Kirghiz conquest they spilt up into three cultural distinct groups - the Gaochang Uighurs, Karakhanids and the Yugurs (“Yellow Head Uighurs”). Two were Buddhist, one Muslim. The Yugurs were defeated and absorbed into the Tangut state before the start of AUH.

The Kara-Khanid cultural model combined nomadic Turkic culture with Islamic, sedentary institutions and of all Turkic peoples. In the tenth century they conquered the Qarluks – a Turkic people who were the most open to the influence of the Muslim culture.
The Gaochang Uighurs were vassals of the Khitans, not just in paying tribute but under direct taxation/governorship. The governors might be an ethnic Khitan or a Central Asian =- either way they certainly resented Khitan overlordship (i.e. they felt it).
These maps of the Khitan territory clear demark there boundaries:




Bear in mind when you look at our map it’s slightly tilted to right compared to most maps of the region. We have discussed extending the map and have had to comprimise slightly, as going further west would involve adding the Indian sub-continent .

All these ethnic groups referred to above will receive representation in some form in AUH. We won’t try and roll them into some form of generic “Qara-Khitan soldier”. The “fun” challenge will be in creating unique units from little source material, contrasting clothing/armour and deciding on the degree of Turkic, Turko-Mongol, Chinese influence on different peoples.

So I guess as far as the game goes, I'd go with some especially hardy nomads as elite cavalry, maybe some light native horsemen "inspired" by the steppe tribes and the old ways of the Uighur. But most of their army would be made up of the sedentary Buddhist/Muslim populace.

Again, this is incorrect. Historically, QK troops were a mass of light cavalry; whole armies could even be made of entirely of their vassals (which they let keep their native military structures). In the interest of gameplay balance we’ll have to see whether that will work with neighbouring factions. They will of course be infantry that will represented the urbanPersian and Turkic speaking city folk/Tajik Farmers.

Well, call it what you want, but bear in mind that the eastern Tarim Basin (the area your map has the Khitans occupying) is not the steppe. It's an extremely dry, arid desert, one of the hottest on earth even. That's probably why the Khitans moved away to greener pastures, and left the natives to their land. A large population of nomads couldn't hope to have some kind of persistent presence there due to the climate.

Sounds like we’ve done the same trip ! Of course the Tarim Basin contains a desert, the Taklamakan – we are well aware of this. However, to the north the Tian Shan and Altai mountains provide an almost alpine environment – and the whole area was still contained rivers to feed the oases where the water is used for irrigation, and reached salt lakes and marshes. Anyways, the nomads the Khitans used in their armies would be sourced from elsewhere (i.e The Qarluks, the Qangli, the Karakhanids, the Naiman) possibly from regions that off our map. Besides, not all nomads rode horses – your forgetting the camels !

[Marcion]

I know wiki is not to be accepted at face value, but at least with it, you usually have several people competing over the truth of something, so you have a range of interpretations. Sometimes individual historians can be biased or misleading. Speaking of which, what book(s) are you using as your source? I might have to get them.

The Gaochang Uighurs were vassals of the Khitans, not just in paying tribute but under direct taxation/governorship. The governors might be an ethnic Khitan or a Central Asian =- either way they certainly resented Khitan overlordship (i.e. they felt it).

What evidence is there that the Khoja were directly governed by the Khitan? The Liao at least tended to take a pretty hands off approach when it came to the governance of sedentary populations, as did most nomadic rulers, necessarily.

[Zhangir]

Firstly correct me if I am wrong, but there is also the name Kara Khitai?
Secondly

I have visited the ruins of Balasaghun in July 2006. Apart from a (renovated) minaret (see http://www.freebase.com/view/en/balasagun ) almost nothing remains of the town. However, one can still distinguish the outlines of the city walls under the grass (climbing up the minaret helps), which gives an idea of the size of the town before its downfall.

Wow! cool mate, have u been to issik kul? I go there every year )

Thirdly, COOL mod guys!

[samtan77]

Apologies, I put in the wrong info