[Faction Discussion] Dai Viet

[vietanh797]

ok ok
that will be include in mod somehow
I will also make sure that we have a General with that name

[Lambo]

I think every factions need a hero.

[Lambo]

but then are we going to have a hero?

[vietanh797]

no hero
just a general
if you want him be a hero
you have to lead him to victory(or death)

p/s: total war proverb: "let's us rewrite the history"

[Lambo]

do other countries have hero?

[vietanh797]

no and no
example in Japan there are Minamoto Yoshitsune
he is one of legendary generals in Japan history
but in game he is just another general with some potential
in fact he is even better than Tran Hung Dao
you'd better read some more history books than story about legend

[gamevn]

Ok, this's our suggest about units

 
CITY


- lv1(Village watch): 
Daiviet peasant (tầm vông – sharpen bamboo)(max available 2) (light infantry, poor morale, poor stamina, bonus fighting cavalry, hide in long grass)
Daiviet peasant crossbowmen(max available 4) (poor morale, poor stamina, use machete to melee, hide in long grass, poison bolt)

- lv2(Town watch): 
Daiviet peasant (max available 4)
Daiviet peasant crossbowmen(max available 4)
Daiviet patrolmen (max available 4) (mã tấu - machete) (light, average morale, average stamina, hide in long grass)

- lv3(Town guard): 
Daiviet peasant(max available 6)
Daiviet peasant crossbowmen, (max available 6)
Daiviet patrolmen (max available 4)
Compost hurlers(max available 2) (average morale, poor stamina, use compost jar to hurl and machete to melee, fast moving, hide in long grass, fast moving (I don't think you want to know "what's in the jar?" :sweating: but we really had used it :sick:)

- lv4(City watch): 
Daiviet peasant+1 exp (max available 6)
Daiviet peasant crossbowmen +1exp (max available 6)
Daiviet patrolmen (max available 6)
Compost hurlers(max available 3)
Daiviet partisan (spear) (max available 4) (light, average morale, average stamina, bonus fighting calvary, use machete to melee, hide in long grass)

- lv5(Militia drill square): 
Daiviet peasant+1 exp, (max available 6)
Daiviet peasant crossbowmen +1exp, (max available 6)
Daiviet patrolmen + 1exp (max available 6)
Compost hurlers(max available 3)
Daiviet partisan (spear) (max available 6)
(Daiviet) War buffaloes(max available 2) (heavy cavalry, good morale, average stamina, can run amok, scare enemy, use machete to melee)

- lv6(Militia barracks):
Daiviet peasant +2 exp, (max available 6)
Daiviet peasant crossbowmen +2exp, (max available 6)
Daiviet patrolmen +1exp, (max available 6)
Compost hurlers(max available 4)
Daiviet partisan (spear) +1exp, (max available 6)
(Daiviet) War buffaloes .(max available 3)

 CASTLE

 
INFANTRY:

- lv1:  
Daiviet patrolmen (max available 4)

- lv2:  
Daiviet patrolmen (max available 6)
Daiviet partisan (spear) (max available 4) 

- lv3:   
Daiviet patrolmen +1exp (max available 6)
Daiviet partisan (spear) +1 exp (max available 4)
Daiviet militia pikemen (max available 6) (light, average morale, good stamina, bonus fighting calvary, use dagger-axe and machete to melee)
Prince's spearmen(max available 3) (heavy, good morale, good stamina, bonus fighting calvary, use falchion to melee)

- lv4:  
Daiviet patrolmen +1exp (max available 6),
Daiviet partisan (spear) + 1exp (max available 6), 
Daiviet militia pikemen (max available 6)
Prince's spearmen (max available 5) 
Prince's swordmen (max available 3) (heavy, good morale, good stamina)

- lv5:  
Daiviet patrolmen +1exp (max available 6),
Daiviet partisan (spear) + 1exp (max available 6), 
Daiviet militia pikemen (max available 6)
Prince's spearmen +1exp(max available 5), 
Prince's swordmen (max available 5),
Prince's pikemen (max available 4) (heavy, good morale, good stamina, bonus fighting cavalry, use pike and falchion to melee)

RANGER: (strong position)

- lv1:  
javelinmen (max available 4) (light, average morale, average stamina, effect against armour, use falchion to melee, fast moving)
Daiviet crossbowmen (max available 4) (light, average morale, good stamina, effect against armour, use falchion to melee, fast moving)

- lv2:  
javelinmen (max available 6)
Daiviet crossbowmen (max available 6)
Daiviet Archers (max available 4) (light, average morale, good stamina, use falchion to melee, fast moving)

- lv3: 
javelinmen  +1exp (max available 6)
Daiviet crossbowmen (max available 6)
Daiviet Archers (max available 4)
Prince’s Archers (max available 4) (light, good morale, good stamina, long range missile, use falchion to melee, fast moving, can use sharpen bamboo)


- lv4: 
javelinmen +1exp(max available 6),
Daiviet crossbowmen +1exp (max available 6), 
Daiviet Archers (max available 4)
Prince's archers (max available 4)
Prince’s Fireball hurlers (max available 3) (good morale, good stamina, effect against armour, use falchion to melee, scare enemy, fast moving)

- lv5: 
Javelinmen  +1exp(max available 6),
Daiviet crossbowmen +1exp (max available 6) 
Daiviet Archers + 1exp (max available 6)
Prince's archers (max available 5)
Prince’s Fireball hurlers (max available 3)

CAVALRY: (weak position, except the elephant)

- lv 2: (castle lv1 don't have calvary)
Mitilia cavalry.(max available 1) (light cavalry, average morale, good stamina, use spear to charge and machete to melee, fast moving)

- lv3: 
Militia cavalry (max available 3)
War buffaloes (max available 3)

- lv4: 
Militia cavalry +1exp, (max available 3) 
War buffaloes, (max available 3)
Prince's cavalry (giáo + kiếm)(max available 1) (heavy cavalry, good morale, good stamina, use bow and sword)
War Elephant(max available 2)* (heavy, good morale, good stamina, can run amok, can hide in jungle, scare enemy)

- lv5: 
militia cavalry +1exp,(max available 3) 
war buffaloes, (max available 3)
Prince's cavalry (max available 2)
War Elephant (max available 3)*
Elephant archer(max available 2)* (heavy, good morale, good stamina, can run amok, can hide in jungle, scare enemy, can use missile) (white elephants, amored. White elephants are rare elephants, ususally used as a gift.)

note ( *) : unit only available in region which has elephant

SIEGE:

- lv 2:
small onager  (max available 2)
- lv 3:
small onager  (max available 2)
big onager (max available 2)
- lv 4:
small onager  (max available 4)
big onager (max available 3)
bamboo bombard (max available 2) (use a appropriate bamboo (about flexible and hard), wind rope tight on it, disposable)
-lv 5: 
small catapult (max available 4)
big catapult (max available 4)
bamboo bombard (max available 2)
copper bombard (max available 1) (rather like medieval 2 bombard, but smaller)

SPECIAL BUILDING

+  MILITARY ACADEMY (only available in Thang Long)
this house is already in Thang Long from the beginning of the game

- lv 1:(available from beginning game)
Daiviet Royal spearmen (max available 2) (heavy, very good morale, very good stamina, well armour, bonus fighting cavalry)

- lv 2: 
Daiviet Royal spearmen (max available 4)
Daiviet Royal swordmen (max available 2) (heavy, very good morale, very good stamina, well armour)
Daiviet Royal Archers (max available 2) (heavy, very good morale, very good stamina, well armour, long ranger missle, effect against armour, can use sharpen bamboo)

- lv 3:
Daiviet Royal spearmen(max available 4)+ 1 exp
Daiviet Royal swordmen(max available 4)
Daiviet Royal Archer (max available 4)



COMMUNITY LONG HOUSE
Chance to get this house is 25% /turn(from town) and only available in highland

-lv 1(high house): 
Daiviet highlander crossbowmen (max available 1) (poison bolt (damage as fire arrow but more accurate), long ranger missile, effect against armour, use strange blade to melee, bonus fighting in jungle, fast moving) 
-lv 2(community house):
Daiviet highlander crossbowmen (max available 2) +1exp
-lv 3(Community long house): 
Daiviet highlander crossbowmen (max available 4) +1exp

 Weapon upgrade

spear -> shining spear with red tassel
Machete) -> Falchion
sword -> sword with red tassel
Dagger-axe -> halberd

Updating.....

We are discussing about skins now. We found an artirst, but he's a student and preparing for his final examination in university, so we must wait at least to next week.

[Kinay]

I have always found the Vietcong tactics facinating, so I'm guessing I will like the Dai Viet. From what I've read here and that list, the Dai Viet also used guerrilla warfare and I like their use of biological warfare.

I know the Vietcong used a arsenal of non-explosive booby traps, like punji sticks (bamboo stakes), trip-wired bamboo maces, trip-wired crossbows and crude caltrops (boards studded with nails) among others, I wonder if these sort of booby traps were already used by the Dai Viet. I think it would be nice to give the Dai Viet deployable bamboo stakes for their archers (if they used them of course).

The war buffalo is like the incendairy buffalo from page 2? If so perhaps they could first be without explosives first:

"The animals were also used as war machines. Drunk and with their tails set on fire, they would be herded en masse into enemy camps where they would set everything on fire."

I'm assuming the catapult would be the double-bow arcuballista?

(I don't think there were any bombards during the peroid of the mod.)

[vietanh797]

First please stop bring any political problem here, I mean stop say anything about Viet Cong or something like that. I don't want to get angry with you

About trap I don't think that Med2 engine could do it so it is better that our archer and crossbowmen have bamboo stakes
in real life it work as trap with infantry
and we also use bamboo to set trap with cavalry which I believe is impossible with Med2 engine(I mean trap) so replace sharpen stakes by bamboo stakes is the best choice

Third the buffalo it can't have the explosives cause it is not only too imbalance but also can't code so I leave it as an option unit which depend on Lucifer and his modder team

Forth the bombards it depend on the black powder event
if that event include in mod so bombards will exist

And most of our battle and tactic are defend, ambush and counter attack so our unit are expert in hiding and we have good bonus in our terrain(mostly are jungle)

p/s: thank to gamevn for post that for me even that I have something in that list incomplete but it is still useable
I know that I promise about 2 file but it will have to wait
export_ unit is surely have to written by us
the export_descr_unit file can't be done by me if I don't know about base stat so I gave the above list to Lucifer

[gamevn]

Our army have been using many weapon on uncommon way, most of them can't put in game .

"Guerrilla warfare" you said? Yes, but do you know who they are? They are peasant indeed. They volunteer to join the war, untrained, unpaid, and their only armour is the love of their country, their own village, their own ricefield and family. But they are really an important part in the "People's war". They know every cm of their town, so they can hide, set traps, ambush, sudden attack, then disappear. The enemy can't know where and when they will fall into a trap, or get an arrow, or are the farmers over there enemy? But in the game, peasant is the weakest unit (well, it's the truth that they are not trained for hand to hand combat). The battlefield is not simply a specific field like "ok here, in this side of the line is our place, and there are the enemy.". The battle can be found everywhere. How can we put it into the game ?

So we must satisfied with what we can do

And about the war buffaloes, sorry i forgot to note you that we knew the game don't has any animation for a unit run amok then blow up, so we ignored the explosive. War buffaloes now only have blades on their horn and spears on their bodies.

[Lambo]

So it's kind of a run amok unit?
PS: Where did u get the list of units for Dai Viet.

[gamevn]

So it's kind of a run amok unit?
PS: Where did u get the list of units for Dai Viet.

I think I told (or type) very clearly. War buffaloes like pigs or wardogs in Rome total war. They can run amok like elephant.

And that list was made by ourselves. We were researching and discussing about it when you were here, spamming . I gave you a link to our topic, and Vietanh told that "please go to our topic to discussing, NOT HERE!"

[vietanh797]

I also have one thing forgot in above list
our pike unit(dagger-axe) in real life dont have secondary weapon
If it is possible to remove secondary weapon so please remove machete from them

[Kinay]

Sorry, I did not want to go political. I just found their traps interesting.

I cannot find any information about the Dai Viet, so I thought they (Dai Viet peasants) might have used simular traps/tactics. Just wondering and I thought bamboo stakes could be done. I shall not talk about it again.

The timeframe is 1171-1271. The Jurchen had used pumpkin-shaped bombards and the Song used bamboo hand-cannons, but I cannot find 'real' cannons being used during that time. So I think not.

I've got some questions:

So the catapult would be some kind of bamboo siege crossbow? Or the double-bow arcuballista?

What kind of walls did they use? Wooden palisades and rammed earth walls?

I hope it's not a problem that I ask questions. I would like to know more about the Dai Viet they seem very interesting.

[gamevn]

The timeframe is 1171-1271. The Jurchen had used pumpkin-shaped bombards and the Song used bamboo hand-cannons, but I cannot find 'real' cannons being used during that time. So I think not.

We'll find more about it

I've got some questions:

So the catapult would be some kind of bamboo siege crossbow? Or the double-bow arcuballista?

I think we have a mistake . Actually, we're talking about onager

What kind of walls did they use? Wooden palisades and rammed earth walls?

This is a special thing we want to tell you in the building part. Dai Viet villages didn't use wooden palisades to defend. They use bamboo rampart (live tree). You know, bamboo live in grove. They thick and have many thorns. Think about many many groves, enclose and protect all the village. That why we usually use bamboo weapons.



About fort, of course we can't uproot a bamboo rampart to move to the fort . In this case we use wooden, or bamboo palisades.

Upgrade higher, there are soil and stone wall.

[Kinay]

Dai Viet villages didn't use wooden palisades to defend. They use bamboo rampart (live tree).

Natural defences, I thought of that but it seem to be too obvious.

I think we have a mistake . Actually, we're talking about onager

That's why I wondered what you ment. There were no catapults that used torsion in the Far East, like the onager.

[visser300]

Our army have been using many weapon on uncommon way, most of them can't put in game .

"Guerrilla warfare" you said? Yes, but do you know who they are? They are peasant indeed. They volunteer to join the war, untrained, unpaid, and their only armour is the love of their country, their own village, their own ricefield and family. But they are really an important part in the "People's war". They know every cm of their town, so they can hide, set traps, ambush, sudden attack, then disappear. The enemy can't know where and when they will fall into a trap, or get an arrow, or are the farmers over there enemy? But in the game, peasant is the weakest unit (well, it's the truth that they are not trained for hand to hand combat). The battlefield is not simply a specific field like "ok here, in this side of the line is our place, and there are the enemy.". The battle can be found everywhere. How can we put it into the game ?

So we must satisfied with what we can do

And about the war buffaloes, sorry i forgot to note you that we knew the game don't has any animation for a unit run amok then blow up, so we ignored the explosive. War buffaloes now only have blades on their horn and spears on their bodies.

It is not a battle, you can call it a small ambush. It will be never a battle. How many men could you kill in that kind of ambush, smart ass?

You can't call them "peasant" because they have trained to ambush, attack suddenly in night blah blah. You have to call them something else like ninja or special night attackers. A peasant would have no special training and they never have combat skills. They just be an easy target for their enemy, got it?

And most of our battle and tactic are defend, ambush and counter attack so our unit are expert in hiding and we have good bonus in our terrain(mostly are jungle)

Oh, everything is much simpler. Just set the Dai Viet faction to something like Maya or a tribute in America. Dai Viet was nothing in the period of time. They are too weak and too small. Mongol just bring 1500 elite troops and 10000 colonist to the land and a whole Dai Viet army had been defeated. Some smart ass said that Mongol brings 100000 troops to fight against Dai Viet. It is ridiculous because the size of mongol army is approximately 138000 warriors at that time. So stop bringing stupid things to the forum, alright?

Please focus on other factions like Korea and China.

[seaboy]

i don't know who you are visser300. but i know how rude and impolite you are. stop making sino centric or Goryeo centric. at that time the chinese from north and south even the Tibetian, and Dali fall to the army of Mongol, become one of their land. Goryeo also can win in same style with vietnam with the static ambush and one of their important General in this time was a vietnamese prince named Ly Long Tuong (이용상/,Ri Ryeong Sang),Hwasan Sanggun , and he become the ancestor of Lee Clan in Korea now.

And what you said make me know that you are very lack of history knowledge. you must to remember not only one time Mongol lost the battle in Daiviet, it's is 3 times. that thing is no faction here can do except us. especially the last time in 1288 Khulibai has used the maximum army for invading one small country with carefully preparation and strength but still lost . that no thing Southern Song, and Goryeo can do.

so before saying something you must to think and has a good knowledge if not the other will think you are st*p*d. i think you're also an east asian so you must know one proverb: "checking carefully before said some words"

[gamevn]

It is not a battle, you can call it a small ambush. It will be never a battle. How many men could you kill in that kind of ambush, smart ass?

Oh yea? An ambush only kill 1,2,3,4... men, or even just wounded them (actually, many kind of traps just wounded the enemy, but the poisonous, or pollution will kill them later), but think about thousands and thousand of traps, of "small ambush" like that all around the country. The enemy never be safe, never have a rest, live in fear "Who's next? Could be me?". Think as a soldier in that situation. Does he want to stay in a country like that? No! He want to go home. No more will to fight.

You can't call them "peasant" because they have trained to ambush, attack suddenly in night blah blah. You have to call them something else like ninja or special night attackers. A peasant would have no special training and they never have combat skills. They just be an easy target for their enemy, got it?

Of couse, that why i said we can't put it in game. We are not fight on common ways. The peasant are not be trained to do anything in war, even to ambush, they do it their own. Of course they couldn't fight in combat, they could be an easy target for the enemy, if the enemy could find them. Have you watch any documentary film about guerrilla in VietNam war? They like ghosts. How can you fight with an enemy you can't see?

Oh, everything is much simpler. Just set the Dai Viet faction to something like Maya or a tribute in America. Dai Viet was nothing in the period of time. They are too weak and too small. Mongol just bring 1500 elite troops and 10000 colonist to the land and a whole Dai Viet army had been defeated. Some smart ass said that Mongol brings 100000 troops to fight against Dai Viet. It is ridiculous because the size of mongol army is approximately 138000 warriors at that time. So stop bringing stupid things to the forum, alright?

Please focus on other factions like Korea and China.

You can take the city, but you can't have all the people. So why do you think Vietnam is still an independent country after thousands years? After had been "defeated" again and again? Why the Mongol, the Chinese, the American must pack up and go after they had "defeated" Vietnamese? We can keep fighting 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 100 years or more, untill we won. You can't "defeat" all Vietnamese except you kill us all.

BTW, we're all polite people, so let's show that we are adults and well-educated. I don't want to quarrel here, or talking about politics. So stop the rude and provoke writing style.

[Hektor27]

Agree with gamevn, we're well-educated adults, so let's try to act like so (unless you aren't).
I just want to put in some of my ideas. Let's make war buffalo units small scaled elephant units (modify the model and the skin, of course), give it some mass and use it as shock troop that make gaps in the enemy's line for other units to take advantage of.

A large part of Dai Viet's army is a semi-standing one with garrisoning soldiers taking turn doing farm works. So, how about having a mechanism (a building favourably) to call up provicial garrisons reserves in exchanged for a small price. Repeat by destroying the building and rebuild it.

Also, Dai Viet's monarchs at the time used to hold national examinations to select good general/ governors. What do you guys think of making certain buildings in the capital city that once build will spawn two generals (one as general and one as governor) to simulate the hoding national exam process. Repeat by destroying the building.

I see that player may exploit the ability to spawn armies and generals, so perhaps you guys can put some scripts that restrict the amount of time between repeated attempts.

Hope I make sense

Hektor