[Faction Discussion] Minamoto Clan

[Augustus Lucifer]

Minamoto Clan

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Minamoto Clan faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[Seether]

How does the team plan on implementing Minamoto Yoshitsune? To further elaborate, will the conflict between him and Yoritomo be reflected via scripted events (such as after Taira defeat he is first exiled, then killed by Minamoto vassal), or will any of his retainers (Benkei, Tateoka) be represented in the mod, perhaps as non-transferable ancillaries?

Thanks

[Augustus Lucifer]

All of those things are a possibility which will be explored. The most likely way that the conflict between Yoshitsune and Yoritomo will be represented is as a resurgent function of our challenge factions mechanism that is very much still in the works. If that turns out not to be viable then it will be represented via a historical event and the force-killing of the character.

As for the ancillaries, assuming the former is the case then Benkei is very likely to be as you say. I'm not aware of Tateoka, so perhaps you could elaborate on that point.

[Seether]

All of those things are a possibility which will be explored. The most likely way that the conflict between Yoshitsune and Yoritomo will be represented is as a resurgent function of our challenge factions mechanism that is very much still in the works. If that turns out not to be viable then it will be represented via a historical event and the force-killing of the character.

As for the ancillaries, assuming the former is the case then Benkei is very likely to be as you say. I'm not aware of Tateoka, so perhaps you could elaborate on that point.

I'm not sure what the 'challenge factions mechanism' is exactly

Tateoka was a superb archer and followed Yoshitsune all the way until the end at Koromogawa. He and Benkei were the last retainers alive, and held off the attackers while Benkei informed Yoshitsune of the dire situation... But in all honesty, Benkei by far surpasses all of the other retainers in all aspects and would be the only viable person to have as an ancillary, if one were to even be included.

[Tail End Charlie]

Maybe we can have unit like the Kensai in Shogun TW, except its Benkei with his Naginata. I would pay to see that...

Oh, in the previews there has been a noticable lack of Samurai horse archers, I assume that they are in the pipeline?

Will there be any Emishi?

Finally I know this is hardly the place what would anyone think about applying the term "feudalism" to Samurai? I'm writing an essay on the term and I need extra-European examples.

[Aerrol]

Finally I know this is hardly the place what would anyone think about applying the term "feudalism" to Samurai? I'm writing an essay on the term and I need extra-European examples.

Definitely. Medieval (Or Feudal! ) Japan is probably the place in the world, outside of europe, where the term is most applicable.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Maybe we can have unit like the Kensai in Shogun TW, except its Benkei with his Naginata. I would pay to see that...

It's a bit hard to make overpowered units work(generally to overpowered). For reference see the Sauron unit in LOTR:TW. Maybe, though.

Oh, in the previews there has been a noticable lack of Samurai horse archers, I assume that they are in the pipeline?

One of the units in the first preview is supposed to be a samurai horse archer. The Daikyu Bushi. I don't know if I'd say there's a lack since we only really previewed one of each unit type.

Will there be any Emishi?

As mercs/AOR, there should be. Not on the top of the priority list but definitely one of the regional lesser ethnicities we plan to represent.

Finally I know this is hardly the place what would anyone think about applying the term "feudalism" to Samurai? I'm writing an essay on the term and I need extra-European examples.

It's a fair distinction. The feudal system of Japan differed from the manorial systems of Europe, but the premise of land in exchange for service and association with ones lord as well as ones country remains much the same. The reasons may differ though, I haven't studied enough European history to know why they transitioned to a feudal system.

[James the Red]

I think that the Samurai didn't carry the Katana yet, they used either 2 predecessor swords who's names I forgot, but primarily the Japanese Bow.

But you guys probably know that already.

[Durruti1936]

Typical 12th/13th Century O-yoroi armour worn by better-off warriors, especially those owning a horse:





Commanders (taisho) would ofter wear kuwagata "antlers" on their helmets:




http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/36.htm


Poorer warriors and foot retainers would usually wear lighter armour such as the do-maru, haramaki and hara-ate. Note the folded eboshi caps and happuri cheek-guards:





Tachi sword of 12th/13th century style. The spare bowstring reel would be slung on top.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Interesting. Does anyone know what the significance of the armor plate over half of the chest is? Is it purely ornamental? Does it protect their heart? We have it on our daikyu bushi unit as seen in the first preview, and I found it curious if correct when I first saw it.

[Durruti1936]

Interesting. Does anyone know what the significance of the armor plate over half of the chest is? Is it purely ornamental? Does it protect their heart? We have it on our daikyu bushi unit as seen in the first preview, and I found it curious if correct when I first saw it.

There are two small armour plates on either side of the front panel of the O-yoroi - the larger one, with lacing, on the right of the body is the sendan-no-ita and the other with the printed leather matching the front panel is the kyubi-no-ita. They protected the armpits as a gap would otherwise open up when the arms were raised (an arrow from the side could enter the heart so yes).

[Durruti1936]

Banners were of the hata-jirushi long streamer type in the 12th and 13th centuries. The Minamoto alliance flew white banners
to distinguish their forces from the red of the Taira. Sometimes, in prints and folding screens, the sasa-rindo emblem (bamboo leaves and
gentian) is associated with the Minamoto clan and depicted on their banners but not always. Often they are plain white or bear
horizontal black bars of varying widths near the top (these possibly signify different clan bands or units in the army).

From Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" series and the film "Kwaidan":





Sketches of Minamoto banners taken from a folding screen portraying the battle of Ichi-no-tani in 1184. The fan emblem is mentioned in "The Tale of the Heike" chronicle as belonging to the Kodama clan, an ally of the Minamoto:

[yevon]

I am sorry but I have a question. Mods will make Tomoe Gozen in this mod?

[Yelü Dashi]

Possibly.

[yevon]

arigatou gozaimasu

Thank you very much

Cám ơn các anh rất nhiều

You can't imagine how much I thank you about it. I really wishing see female samurai army use oversize naginata lead by general Tomoe Gozen in game. She so cool

[Killerbee]

Sorry , i know nothing of history etc. but is this Musashi's (the great swordsmen) clan , or is that Miyamoto ?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Sorry , i know nothing of history etc. but is this Musashi's (the great swordsmen) clan , or is that Miyamoto ?

That would be Miyamoto.

[King Siegfried]

I have several photo reference books about samurai and ashigaru (foot soldiers) from throughout feudal Japanese history, so if you guys need some reference photos, I can see about taking some good pics for you all. Also, I did a lot of research on Yoshitsune and his rebellion for my senior year project in Japanese class, so if you guys need any help with history or whatnot, I could lend a hand.

Also. I noticed that, in the mini-preview for the Japanese factions, the mounted samurai are not wielding any spears or lances. I think it would be badass if there was one unit of mounted samurai that wield the jumonji-yari (I especially like the one wielded by Mr. Kyougoku from Samurai Shodown).