[Faction Discussion] Goryeo

[Augustus Lucifer]

Goryeo

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Goryeo faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[Coffeeholic]

Koryeo's military was infantry-based. Since Korean penninsula is mostly(more than 60%) composed of mountains, heavy cavalry was of little use. Instead, spears and bows were the most widely used weapons. Korean Composite bows, especially, were the most powerful bows in the northeast Asia. These characteristics made Korean army powerful siege defenders, but they were relatively weak at field battles. To compare, Korean army was simmilar to it of English.

[TheLastPrivate]

That's actually a common misconception that mostly came around Joseon period.

Goryeo deployed gae-ma cavalry(fully armoured cataphract-ish cavalry) just like Goguryeo and were deployed along with Gum-cha (sword wagons). In records we see that Goryeo deployed up to 10,000 fully armoured Gae-ma cavalry.



Many historians believed that Gumcha was used to corner enemys under withering fire, and once the time was right a heavy cavalry charge would finish the enemy off.

Only thing that did change was the ratio of infantry and cavalry: In Goguryeo it used to be 50:50, but in Goryeo the number of cavalry were reduced because of:

1) Loss of manchurian plains
2) heavy cavalry such as Gae-ma Cavalry were completely ineffective against light horse archers of Khitai/Jurchen/Mongols.

One of the greatest victories against the Khitais came in the battle of Heung Hwa Jin, which was a completely open field battle (this is before the Battle of Sal-su).

The ultimate reason of decline in cavalry force (especially in 13th century) would be:

1. An agricultural society (i.e. Goryeo) with 1/5th the population of Khitan population maintaining the equal number of cavalry would be inefficient & expensive.
2. Political instability caused by the bitter feud between the Military regime vs. scholars & landowners that plagued most of the dynasty.

[Tail End Charlie]

They had magneficent heavily armoured cavalry?

Damn, my reading to Korean history never gave me any hint, and its the most in depth book on Korean history I've found in central London....


Anyway, wooot

[STELLover]

That's actually a common misconception that mostly came around Joseon period.

Goryeo deployed gae-ma cavalry(fully armoured cataphract-ish cavalry) just like Goguryeo and were deployed along with Gum-cha (sword wagons). In records we see that Goryeo deployed up to 10,000 fully armoured Gae-ma cavalry.



Many historians believed that Gumcha was used to corner enemys under withering fire, and once the time was right a heavy cavalry charge would finish the enemy off.

Only thing that did change was the ratio of infantry and cavalry: In Goguryeo it used to be 50:50, but in Goryeo the number of cavalry were reduced because of:

1) Loss of manchurian plains
2) heavy cavalry such as Gae-ma Cavalry were completely ineffective against light horse archers of Khitai/Jurchen/Mongols.

One of the greatest victories against the Khitais came in the battle of Heung Hwa Jin, which was a completely open field battle (this is before the Battle of Sal-su).

The ultimate reason of decline in cavalry force (especially in 13th century) would be:

1. An agricultural society (i.e. Goryeo) with 1/5th the population of Khitan population maintaining the equal number of cavalry would be inefficient & expensive.
2. Political instability caused by the bitter feud between the Military regime vs. scholars & landowners that plagued most of the dynasty.

Are you Korean? I am also

[TheLastPrivate]

Are you Korean? I am also

Yes I am, but I am one man and I'll be happy to receive materials that I may not be able to gather alone.



If anyone is interested in sharing material relevant to Goryeo history but is not comfortable with English, please PM or write a visitor message to me in Korean!

혹시라도 중세 고려사에 대해 사료나 자료가 있으신데 영어때문에 섣불리 나누지 못하시는 분이 계시다면 꼭 제게 한글로 쪽지나 메시지 남겨주시기 바랍니다!!



My previous post of some materials that I had found already:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...28#post4243028

[Tail End Charlie]

Goryeo military history is often neglected because, the power feud between the military generals and landowning traditional nobles ended in the political victory of the landowning nobles (who hated war and did their best to beg for peace), which led to the fall of the dynasty itself and sets a nonexpansionist tone for Joseon later on.

Anything about Korean history is neglected outside Korea, from what I can find you'd think the North Koreans were the only interesting regime on the peninsula...Me want Wang Kon not Kim IL Jong.

[jinking]

Yes I am, but I am one man and I'll be happy to receive materials that I may not be able to gather alone.



If anyone is interested in sharing material relevant to Goryeo history but is not comfortable with English, please PM or write a visitor message to me in Korean!

혹시라도 중세 고려사에 대해 사료나 자료가 있으신데 영어때문에 섣불리 나누지 못하시는 분이 계시다면 꼭 제게 한글로 쪽지나 메시지 남겨주시기 바랍니다!!



My previous post of some materials that I had found already:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...28#post4243028

제가 영어를 몰라서 헤매다가 겨우 가입했네요. 국내 모 싸이트에서 고려군 복식을 복원한 도면이 있는데 소개해 드릴까 합니다.
http://cafe.daum.net/shogun/MB5/2745
http://cafe.daum.net/shogun/MB5/2746

http://goryeo.culturecontent.com/ 원 출처는 이 곳이구요.


모더분께서 오스프리 자료를 올리는 걸 삼가 해 달라고 하셨던데 오스프리 자료는 아니니깐... 그럼 이만;

[Aerrol]

Really? I've found such information on Wikipedia, so I'm surprised you haven't been able to find any mention of Korean Heavy Cavalry in London.

I wish I had source material so I could be more help than merely verifying what others are posting . Oh well. Goryeo should be fun to play! Might even play them second!

[TheLastPrivate]

I'm pretty sure wikipedia doesn't mention anything about gumcha or Goryeo crossbowmen or Byul Moo Ban divisions in depth at all either.

I admit it's a quick source of info, but if you're looking for any kind of depth, you should steer away from wikipedia.

Goryeo military history is often neglected because, the power feud between the military generals and landowning traditional nobles ended in the political victory of the landowning nobles (who hated war and did their best to beg for peace), which led to the fall of the dynasty itself and sets a nonexpansionist tone for Joseon later on.

[Khorney]

even studying east asain history all i know that korea has been heavily influenced by china in it's culture, but it's basically cocked up every government it's tried to form =S i will admit it is from a slightly sino-centric viewpoint, however
and the choson did pretty well i guess, but isn't relevent to our interests here

[STELLover]

FACTION: GORYEO

This is a basic overview information to the dev about the Faction Goryeo, the following information is mostly historically accurate:


FACTION OVERVIEW
During this time (1171AD) when the campaign starts, Goryeo was largely influenced by high ranking generals in the army, whom called themselves Moo-Sin (General). These Moo-Sins had a lot of political and military power, and the council of Moo-Sins sometimes made national decisions, laws and sometimes forced the king to their own. Therefore, Goryeo Generals had a lot of authority (Can be a general trait/ancillary)

Goryeo's army was separately commanded by individual generals (Moo-Sins) who reported independantly to the Supreme Commander, whom, was still under command of the King. Its army was separated by provinces. According to the "Encyclopedia of Goryeo" it constructed more than 50 forts and small castles between valleys and forges from the Goryeo-Chinese border inspite frequent Chinese and Mongol Tribe invasions.


UNIT OVERVIEW

(Historical)
Strengths: Goryeo's penninsula geography made Goryeo's Naval power one of the top, if not, the best navy in all east Asia. The Naval Merchants Guild (Real), like the Merchants guild, provides discounts for the Goryeo navy, as well as allowed recruitment of special types of ships (I am not sure if you guys can do such thing)

Goryeo also brags in:
-Heavy Infantry, some of the best in Asia
-Armored Spearmen
-Some of the best Archers. (Korea won the Olympics in Archery 10 times a row)
However they lack in:
-Effective Heavy Calvary
-Light Calvary
-Ineffective militia. The encyclopedia mentions Goryeo militia had low armored civilians and retired soldiers with a short swords and forks. Militia Bowmen was also present at the time
Other military specs:
-Archeologists showed evidence that they used some mounted archers
-Advanced technology, second to China


THE HERALDRY OF THE GORYEO KINGDOM (I have removed their authorical titles like (Myeong Jong, Shin Jong, Hee Jong, but removed because its sounds too funny)

Historical Line of Goryeo kings


Due to some rulers who ruled for 3-5 years, i have deleted them in this list

1- King Myeong (1170-1197)
2- King Shin (1197-1204)
3- King Hee (1204-1211) Forced out of rule by Moo-Shins (Like Japanese Shoguns)
4- King Kang (1211-1213) Forced out of rule by Moo-Shins
5- King Ko (1213-1259)
6- King Won (1259-1274)

New Line of Choongs (They were formidable leaders, maybe +2 Authority?
7- King Choong Ryul (1274-1308)
8- King Choong Suk (1308-1339)
9- King Choong Hae (1339-1344)
10- King Choong Mok (1344-1351)
Line of Choongs End

Since Augustus mentioned the timeframe is between 1171 and 1181, King Myeong should appear as the faction leader, and Crown Prince Shin as heir



FAMOUS GENERALS

General Jung Joong Bu- A powerful and notorious commander who stressed the defense of Goryeo from the Mongol Tribal Factions, as well as tried to seize authority as Supreme Commander

General Che Choong- A famous general who is known to have more power and influence than his current king, King Shin. A great military commander and strategist, but a heavy drinker and a public pervert. Ruled militarily for five years 1172-1177 Died 1251.





RELIGION
Goryeo is mainly Buddist, but 5% Confucianism (I can't find the exact type of Buddhis during this time period- sorry


FAMOUS SETTLEMENTS(ADVANCED)

Capital: Gae Gyeong (Present Day Seoul)

Famous/Advanced Castles:
1-Cheon-Li Castle - Near the Tae Dong River (Actually a huge group of 9 concentric castles)
2-Seo-Gyeong- Present Day Pyeong Yang

FEEL FREE TO +REP ME

[STELLover]

This post is the sequel to the previous one, sorry I don't have spoilers


This can also be a good faction symbol or avatar for the Goryeo faction:


A example of a Goryeo Armored Spearmen- Armor reflects much of whom soldiers wore during these times- Sorry for the bad quality



Elite Goryeo infantry armor- sorry bad quality again



Possible Goryeo Spear Militia?



Goryeo ships- navy



Goryeo Heavy Calvary drawing (Gae Ma)




Sorry all these images are low resolution and detail, but at least it is accurate and safe to say these units really looked like the comical ones in the picture. I will try to upload some more pics later on

You might have to right click on the small icon and click open image in a new tab option

[Baeksu]

RELIGION
Goryeo is mainly Buddist, but 5% Confucianism (I can't find the exact type of Buddhis during this time period- sorry


FAMOUS SETTLEMENTS(ADVANCED)

Capital: Gae Gyeong (Present Day Seoul)

Famous/Advanced Castles:
1-Cheon-Li Castle - Near the Tae Dong River (Actually a huge group of 9 concentric castles)
2-Seo-Gyeong- Present Day Pyeong Yang

Confucianism isn't really a religion - I don't know what you're planning to do with Confucianism in the overall game, but as far as Koryo's concerned it'd make more sense to have a large Buddhist majority (since it was the state religion at the time) and a Shamanist/Animist minority.

Also, how many provinces are you planning on making Koryo proper? Ideally, it ought to be eight ( Chungcheong [Gongju], Gangwon [Wonju], Gyonggi [Gaegyeong], Gyeongsang [Daegu], Hamgyeong [Hamhung], Hwanghae [Haeju], Jeolla [Jeonju], Pyongan [Seogyeong]), but for game balance purposes that would probably be excessive. I can try to find something on the administrative divisions of Koryo to see if they differed substantially from Choseon.

[STELLover]

Confucianism isn't really a religion - I don't know what you're planning to do with Confucianism in the overall game, but as far as Koryo's concerned it'd make more sense to have a large Buddhist majority (since it was the state religion at the time) and a Shamanist/Animist minority.

Also, how many provinces are you planning on making Koryo proper? Ideally, it ought to be eight ( Chungcheong [Gongju], Gangwon [Wonju], Gyonggi [Gaegyeong], Gyeongsang [Daegu], Hamgyeong [Hamhung], Hwanghae [Haeju], Jeolla [Jeonju], Pyongan [Seogyeong]), but for game balance purposes that would probably be excessive. I can try to find something on the administrative divisions of Koryo to see if they differed substantially from Choseon.

If you look at the first two previews and the map and region previews- it says it all

you are absolutely right- Confucianism is not something that can be regarded as a proper religion, rather than a list of rules and teachings that its followers follow. However it was a big thing back in Korea and China- while Buddhism was large in the Goryeo dynasty, so was Confucianist teachings implemented in many Goryeo scripts and documents

I think there is no harm regarding Confucianism as a religion though..

[Augustus Lucifer]

Also, how many provinces are you planning on making Koryo proper? Ideally, it ought to be eight ( Chungcheong [Gongju], Gangwon [Wonju], Gyonggi [Gaegyeong], Gyeongsang [Daegu], Hamgyeong [Hamhung], Hwanghae [Haeju], Jeolla [Jeonju], Pyongan [Seogyeong]), but for game balance purposes that would probably be excessive. I can try to find something on the administrative divisions of Koryo to see if they differed substantially from Choseon.

There are 8 cities in Goryeo. The minimum amount of cities held by a faction at game start is something like 6-8, with the max being much higher.

Kaegyong (Capital)
Sogyong
Namgyong
Dongyong
Kyoju
Cholla
Tonggye
Sohae

[StirFriedRice]

FACTION: GORYEO

This is a basic overview information to the dev about the Faction Goryeo, the following information is mostly historically accurate:


FACTION OVERVIEW
During this time (1171AD) when the campaign starts, Goryeo was largely influenced by high ranking generals in the army, whom called themselves Moo-Sin (General). These Moo-Sins had a lot of political and military power, and the council of Moo-Sins sometimes made national decisions, laws and sometimes forced the king to their own. Therefore, Goryeo Generals had a lot of authority (Can be a general trait/ancillary)

Goryeo's army was separately commanded by individual generals (Moo-Sins) who reported independantly to the Supreme Commander, whom, was still under command of the King. Its army was separated by provinces. According to the "Encyclopedia of Goryeo" it constructed more than 50 forts and small castles between valleys and forges from the Goryeo-Chinese border inspite frequent Chinese and Mongol Tribe invasions.


UNIT OVERVIEW

(Historical)
Strengths: Goryeo's penninsula geography made Goryeo's Naval power one of the top, if not, the best navy in all east Asia. The Naval Merchants Guild (Real), like the Merchants guild, provides discounts for the Goryeo navy, as well as allowed recruitment of special types of ships (I am not sure if you guys can do such thing)

Goryeo also brags in:
-Heavy Infantry, some of the best in Asia
-Armored Spearmen
-Some of the best Archers. (Korea won the Olympics in Archery 10 times a row)
However they lack in:
-Effective Heavy Calvary
-Light Calvary
-Ineffective militia. The encyclopedia mentions Goryeo militia had low armored civilians and retired soldiers with a short swords and forks. Militia Bowmen was also present at the time
Other military specs:
-Archeologists showed evidence that they used some mounted archers
-Advanced technology, second to China


THE HERALDRY OF THE GORYEO KINGDOM (I have removed their authorical titles like (Myeong Jong, Shin Jong, Hee Jong, but removed because its sounds too funny)

Historical Line of Goryeo kings


Due to some rulers who ruled for 3-5 years, i have deleted them in this list

1- King Myeong (1170-1197)
2- King Shin (1197-1204)
3- King Hee (1204-1211) Forced out of rule by Moo-Shins (Like Japanese Shoguns)
4- King Kang (1211-1213) Forced out of rule by Moo-Shins
5- King Ko (1213-1259)
6- King Won (1259-1274)

New Line of Choongs (They were formidable leaders, maybe +2 Authority?
7- King Choong Ryul (1274-1308)
8- King Choong Suk (1308-1339)
9- King Choong Hae (1339-1344)
10- King Choong Mok (1344-1351)
Line of Choongs End

Since Augustus mentioned the timeframe is between 1171 and 1181, King Myeong should appear as the faction leader, and Crown Prince Shin as heir



FAMOUS GENERALS

General Jung Joong Bu- A powerful and notorious commander who stressed the defense of Goryeo from the Mongol Tribal Factions, as well as tried to seize authority as Supreme Commander

General Che Choong- A famous general who is known to have more power and influence than his current king, King Shin. A great military commander and strategist, but a heavy drinker and a public pervert. Ruled militarily for five years 1172-1177 Died 1251.





RELIGION
Goryeo is mainly Buddist, but 5% Confucianism (I can't find the exact type of Buddhis during this time period- sorry


FAMOUS SETTLEMENTS(ADVANCED)

Capital: Gae Gyeong (Present Day Seoul)

Famous/Advanced Castles:
1-Cheon-Li Castle - Near the Tae Dong River (Actually a huge group of 9 concentric castles)
2-Seo-Gyeong- Present Day Pyeong Yang

FEEL FREE TO +REP ME

the site of the Goryeo capital is not present day Seoul but Present day Gaesung.

[kibernian]

Capital: Gae Gyeong (Present Day Seoul)

hey... nobody said this?
Now Gae Gyeong is Kaesong or Gaesong. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong
Present day Seoul was Nam gyong. not Gae Gyeong.

[io543]

.

[TheLastPrivate]

even studying east asain history all i know that korea has been heavily influenced by china in it's culture, but it's basically cocked up every government it's tried to form =S i will admit it is from a slightly sino-centric viewpoint, however
and the choson did pretty well i guess, but isn't relevent to our interests here

Quite the contrary.

Goguryeo fought of Sui and Tang against overwhelming odds and never made peace treaty on the invader's terms.

However, starting from Goryeo the division between military generals and landowning nobles made the fight difficult, resulting in Joseon where the national strategy was to maintain peace while offering vassalite stature.

The biggest Chinese influence to Korea happened during the Mongolian conquest, because if you look closely the differences are quite striking in terms of style and habits.