[Faction Discussion] Jin Dynasty

[Augustus Lucifer]

Jin Dynasty

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Jin Dynasty faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[Shadowcry]

What kind of cavalry are we likely to see, when playing as the Jin? Will they have some of the best Cavalry in the game?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Some of the best, I don't know that they will be the best necessarily, that is yet to be seen. We're very likely to have the Iron Pagodas(Tiefutu 铁浮图 ; Also known as Iron Buddhas) as well as some of the other Jin heavy cavalry units, and some Manchu-influenced horse archer types, along with the Han-influenced armies. They should be an interesting mixture.

[Shadowcry]

Awesome! In comparison to the Mongol Empire will their lower tier horse archers be better oir worse in comparison? Is it likely that we will see Khitan units in their roster as well?

Additionally, what would you say would be the prevalence of female warriors in Mongol, Xixia and Jin rosters?

[★Bandiera Rossa☭]

Will they get decent infantry?

[Shadowcry]

They should, as well as have a capable navy at that. The Jin were kind of the superpower of the map at this time. Comparable to an uber rich Seleucids of RTW, the Jin were the ultimate superpower of this era having imposed heavy tribute on the Song. It is not unreasonable to believe that i fhte Mongols had not arisen the Jin would have been the nation to reunite China.

[RollingWave]

The Jin's attempt to conquer Southern Song in 1161 was a disastor, largely because they got their ass completely wooped in naval warfare. They took a army of 600,000 (claimed to be 1 million ) and split it into 4 group, with the eastern front being a sea force heading directly for the Song capital, while the emperor leading the eastern front's land forces. the western forces headed for ShiChuang and Hu Bei.

The Eastern front was really decisive... the land forces were successful at first, but the naval force was completely annihilated at sea by the Song, and when the land force tried to cross the Yangtsi, it was surprised and also devastated during the crossing.

So the Song should obviously have the best navy, the Jin probably in the second teir .

[Shadowcry]

True while the Song should have the best navy, the Jin should come second. However their military was a juggernaut, and if not for internal rebellions and the crisis of succession within the Jin military they would have likely defeated the Mongols.

Their cavalry supposedly was so powerful, that the Mongols made it their imperative to deny the Jin their maneuverability and use in several battles. For example in the battle of Huan erh tsui in 1211, and succesive battles denied the Jin the capability to use their cav. On other instances Jin cav decimated the Mongols despite being outnumbered severely.

[jalen911]

http://bbsimg.ali213.net/attachments...ujNwBWeuVP.jpg

[mochi]

It should be preferable to make Jin rebels as independent faction.
That would represents Shandong rebelion and ascendants of Ryao Empire.

[jalen911]

What is Ryao Empire................

[Suppanut]

Called Liao by chinese

[Keravnos]

http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_feb01.htm

see also,
http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_feb99.htm

all the links in there have a lot of info for anyone who is willing to look for it.


I like the following link as it can be used for a lot of things for the HA based factions, as it includes knowledge millenia old on how they should operate. A lot can be done from here, I think. attributes, characterizations the works...

From the 'Illustrated Guide to Archery Method' by Liu Qi (Qing, 1722)

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/horseback/Liuqi.htm

and the best for last, a pair of actual Jin synthetic longbows
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/khotan_bow.htm

[frontier-auxilia]

Called Liao by chinese

Noooooo thats the khitan one.

Allow me to contribute a bit. The manchu dynast that took over china ranging from the Xianbei, khitans, jurchen and the later manchu Qing believed in the notion of "conqueroing all under heaven on the back of a horse" #ok i try my best to translate the phrase# Therefore their strongest element should be the cavalry

Not only that their reputation were well earned. A common chinese saying was that if the manchu could muster 10 000 men they can beat anything. Although they looked down upon in western historiography on the mongols period due to their failure against Genghis Khan, the Jin heavy cavalry were the grim reapers of the battlefield during their hay days. If i recall from this book about chinese weaponry, the author noted how the Jin simply beat the average song general by using a much more straight-forward version of Philip II's hammer and anvil tactic. That is crushing the song cavalry with overwhelming force by numbers, skills and armour stationed on the flank then hammer the Song's rear in. The only time that the chinese general had a fighting chance was to deployed on superior grounds (think crecy except the guys on there are chinese with crossbows) and generally stay on the defensive.

Two of the most famous element of the Jin cavalry includes the Guan Zi ma a.k.a the iron chain horses and the other one is called the Iron Paggoda. Whereas popular tradition suggested that the Guan zi ma were tie together via an iron chain to increase staying power and shock. Yet in recent research, it was discovered that this was actually a tale fabricated by one of Yue Fei son and in practise chaining things together in military history (via egypt, persia and in some case china) proved disastrous. Plus being unarmoured one horse could endangered many other by itself from simply falling down dead. By calling them Iron chain horses might actually meant the close-knitted co-operation that these cavalry men had with the Iron Paggoda.

If cataphracts were considered tanks of ancient-medieval warfare then the Iron Paggoda were the M1A2 out of all of them. Being clothed in 2 layers of heavy lamellar armour, they were pratically invulnerable to missle attacks. Their mounts were like wise heavily armoured. When Song armies were on the offensive without deploying traps or in a superior position to repel a cavalry charge, the Iron Paggoda would simply charged the song army upfront and punch a hole right through them!!

Im on a hurry, so a better post to elaborate on the subject will come later.

[Yelü Dashi]

A very interesting site Keravnos (nice to see you hear by the way)

Unfortunately the Jin Dynasty discussed here is the Chinese one (265-420 AD), not the Jurchen one (1115–1234). Nonetheless there is some interesting info there covering our period, I've never anything that detailed on Liao archery, which the would have been similar to that of the Jurchen (though they were not strictly nomadic HA)

[Yelü Dashi]

yes, chained together guaizima were certainly fictional - but that and idea that that the Jurchen rode chariots confused me for a while !. The Tiefutu will be definately be featured though - I have actually finished this model/texture - you will have never seen so much lamellar on a unit ! Need to work on the horse armour next.

[Wundai]

The Tiefutu will be definately be featured though - I have actually finished this model/texture - you will have never seen so much lamellar on a unit ! Need to work on the horse armour next.

Haha, I get more info on progress in this forum than I expected!

[yevon]

i read one Chinese's history book say about Yue Fei. In 1140, he fight with Jin. In battle at 郾城区, Jin had used a kind of armour chariot named " Gua Zi Ma" ( my book write by Vietnamese language, I have to translated it's name to Chinese again. Because of that, I can't sure this name is right.). This chariot use 3 horses in one chariot. Yue Fei and his son order South Song's army cut in horses' leg, kill all of Jin's chariot, defeated Jin army.

in this book say that: In 1140, South SOng' general is Liu Ji fight with Jin. Jin had used a kind of formation: 3 soldier in one "wu" (伍 ). war horse be tied with other by leather chain, they named " Tie Ta" ( 鉄 塔, i can't sure this name is right.) beside this troop have Gua Zi Ma protect them. Book say, this troop had defeat Song many times until when it had be defeated by Liu Ji and Yue Fei.

Can you check this troop and armour chariot?

[Yelü Dashi]

Both the existence of guaizima (chained horses) or any form of chariot used by the Jurchen have been disproved by modern scholarship. Trust me, I've looked into it.

[yevon]

so, this problem had be talked about by auxillia. Because his post is a little confuse, I can't understand what he saying ( and because I can't sure about Chariot's name). So, it only is legend. One more new for me, arigatou .

But I really have to ask: You mod ( Chinese) have enough history document to made about all of Former kingdoms in Modern China's territory ( I mean Jin, Liao, Dali, Tibet)? I really feel worry about it. Because in history, when invalded one kingdoms, the conqueror usually will kill all, destroy all and burn all anything about this defeated kingdoms. This action very normal in history, like when the Mongol invalded South Song, they want made China become " One large savanna for cattles" ( really is Mongol, all for cattles , so simple-hearted.). When Ming empire invalded Dai Viet, Ming' Emperor 明成祖 order general is 张辅 destroy all of Dai Viet's document, even it only is ... children's book. And when Dai Viet invalded Champa, King Le Thanh Tong order destroy almost Champa's building and document. With Song, Dai Viet,... because soon after that, they gain their independence again, they can rewrite about these lost document. But with those Former kingdoms like Liao or Champa, they never can do it anymore. Because of that, we have very little history document to made them in this mods, too. In three month, we Vietnamese find document about Champa and almost hopeless. In topic Champa is almost document we find out.