[Faction Discussion] Song Dynasty

[Augustus Lucifer]

Song Dynasty

This thread can be used for non-team members to discuss the Song Dynasty faction. Research, ideas, and imagery for the team to use in our development of the faction are appreciated. This post will contain more information about this faction and their inclusion within the mod in the future.

Note: Please do not include Osprey images in this thread, as it is against the policy of TWC to allow copyrighted material to be posted, especially Osprey Publications.

Regards,
AUH Team

[ray243]

I know that the Song is never famous for their military, except when commanded by exceptional generals like Yue Fei.

I was wondering, can we have a Yue Fei like reforms to improve our army?

Given that the momment we started playing the game, it is going to be alternate history.

[Xuande]

In case you need it, I'd recommend browsing this forum for historical research data :

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/

Perhaps you could even recruit some "historians" there ?


- They have a section on "Ancient Chinese Arsenal" :
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showforum=55

(for instance, see this attempt to rebuild a triple-bow Song dynasty siege crossbow : http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...showtopic=4583 )

- They have a section on the "Song and Jin era" :

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showforum=10


Enjoy !

[Yelü Dashi]

Thanks Xuande, I have been a member of CHF for a while. My username is Nihil_Obstat. Unfortunately we got very little response from a preview we posted there a few months back.

Its a great resource for research though. But no ones has answered my question about whether chariots were used in warfare by either the Song or the Jin ? Or the question about the Great Wall during our period.

[Xuande]

Thanks Xuande, I have been a member of CHF for a while. My username is Nihil_Obstat. Unfortunately we got very little response from a preview we posted there a few months back.

Its a great resource for research though. But no ones has answered my question about whether chariots were used in warfare by either the Song or the Jin ? Or the question about the Great Wall during our period.

Yep. I found your topic about Jin chariots on CHF (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...opic=680&st=45 ).

1 - I am no historian so I can't tell for sure, but I find the existence of such war chariots in the Jin army rather improbable.

First of all, although the war chariot was the "reference" weapon during the pre-Qin age, it gradually fell out of use after Zhao Wuling introduced cavalry in China. So I would find it very surprising to find some chariots, used on a large scale, in the Jin army a thousand years later, especially since the Jin, as nomads, would have had less incentive to use chariots than the Chinese at the time of Yue Fei. I mean, at the time of Yue Fei, the Jin, unlike the Liao, were still fresh from their steppes. They probably did not possess the "industrial" infrastructure required to build an armada of chariots. Besides, being nomads, they probably had some good horses which would stand well on their own. So why bother with chariots ?


Moreover, the biography of Yue Fei by Qian Cai is total fantasy. It was written 500 years after the events and it sounds to me as an attempt to make a new "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" or "Water Margin". I would even more so distrust its "guaizima" story that the two aforementionned books also feature episodes with colourful mass chariot or heavy cavalry charges. So I wouldn't be surprised if Qian Cai took his inspiration from there :

- In "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" (SanGuoYiYanYi), Wei kingdom allies with some proto-tanggut kings (the Qiang tribesmen) to divert the Shu-Han forces. The Qiang then come to battle the Shu-Han army with a formation made of heavily armoured chariots linked together side by side by metallic chains. Then they proceed on charging the Han with this chariot phalanx. But Han general Zhuge Liang (or perhaps it was Jiang Wei, I don't remember) finds an astute way to turn the trick to his advantage and the Qiang are routed.

- In the "Water Margin", set in Northern Song times and, a court appointed general uses the same kind of trampling tactics by linking three heavy cavalry horses together (no chariot here, just the horses and their riders) by a chain. Then, the cataphracted squadrons charge the bandits and trample them. This tactic seems unstoppable until the bandits find a way to make one of the three horses fall using a specially designed spear. The heavy horses are then defeated, and the court general joins the bandits instead of going back to court.

The similarity between these classical stories and Qian Cai's are too obvious to be accidental. The guy certainly wanted to allude to these in his book. Hence his chariot story. That's why I find it hard to trust this Jin chariot story.


This being said, in the side notes of my French edition of the "Water Margin", it is said that the Song and Jin did indeed use a mass/chained cataphract formation (of horses, not of chariots). That may be an historical basis for the myth ?


2 - Someone in the CHF topic raised an interesting point about the use of carts or chariots against the nomadic people. I've read somewhere - but can't remember where ... might be in another CHF post or in Sawyer's translation of the "Seven Military Classics" - that Li Jing used a train of carts to protect his infantry and crossbowmen against cavalry attacks while campaigning against the Turks.

I don't know if such tactics would still be implemented by the Song era, but if that was the case, that could make for a new unit : a kind of carroccio which could be deployed allong the flanks of a Chinese infantry army to provide with some protection against cavalry charges.

[celestialwarrior]

Thanks Xuande, I have been a member of CHF for a while. My username is Nihil_Obstat. Unfortunately we got very little response from a preview we posted there a few months back.

Its a great resource for research though. But no ones has answered my question about whether chariots were used in warfare by either the Song or the Jin ? Or the question about the Great Wall during our period.

Yelu Dashi, Xuande is correct. Neither the Song nor the Jin used chariots for warfare in the traditional sense (as a shock/skirmishing force).

As a matter of fact, it is near improbable for the Song and Jin armies at this late date to still be using chariots for warfare. War chariots were last used during the Former Han era (more than 1,000 years ago) and probably died out by the time of Wudi's expansionist wars (late 2nd - early 1st century BC).

On the other hand, it is possible that wagon laagers could've been used by the [Southern] Song. Famous Han generals like Wei Qing and Li Ling used wagon laagers to neutralize Xiongnu cavalry charges and also to serve as a sort of makeshift fort to further provide protection for the army's flanks, especially when severely outnumbered (like in Li Ling's case). IIRC, wagon laagers were also used by the southern dynasties during the Age of Fragmentation, and this was due to the southern dynasties' lack of horses and good cavalry. Liu Yu of the "Liu-Song" (c. 5th century, not to be confused with the [Southern] Song of this mod, set in the mid-late 12th century) used those wagons to great effect in his northern conquests, especially to protect the flanks and also to serve as a mobile platform for missile troops and field artillery (giant liannu/ballistas for example) to fire at the enemy. This might not be likely though since the Song already had at their arsenal very effective anti-cavalry weapons in the form of steel arbalests (Shenbi Nu & Kedi Gong) and polearms/poleaxes/long-blades (zhanmadao & Yue Fei's mazhadao) to deal with massed cataphract charges.

So, considering all this, it is impossible for any of the factions in China (or almost anywhere in the world really) at this time to be using traditional war chariots and highly unlikely for the Jin to be using wagon laagers (even if we assume the [Southern] Song did) as the Jin had no need to since they had a superb cavalry force.

I would also stick with Yun's opinion regarding the nature of the guaizima, as it seems far more sensible and realistic than the popular accounts derived from the various ahistorical Yue Fei myths and legends. The Jin's most powerful weapon was probably their elite cataphracts, the feared Iron Pagoda/Iron Buddha (tiefutu), covered up in 2 layers of iron lamellar armor, both man and horse, and armored to the teeth; the famous Jin commander Wanyan Wushu (the one who fought Yue Fei, as you might know) said that they feared only two Song weapons - the poleaxe and the steel arbalest (the Shenbi Nu). The Jin Iron Pagoda was also probably the inspiration and source for the Mongol cataphracts.

Also, IMO, to accurately portray the Song, they should have the most powerful missile units (especially their crossbows/arbalests), various armored infantry units equipped with unique polearms, and also the most number of different types of units (to simulate the various types of weapons invented and put to use by the Song, such as the earliest gunpowder units, i.e. firelances, primitive grenades, etc.); most of their units should be well-trained. However, most, if not all of their generals should have no stars and most of their units at the start of the campaign map should have no experience to simulate the historic restraints and weaknesses of the Song military system (as the Song emperors were historically more paranoid about internal rebellion than external invasion and created an ineffective military system as a result of this fear). While the Song also get cataphracts (although historically, they were clearly not as good as those of the Jin and the Mongols), their cavalry units should be extremely expensive to simulate the [Southern] Song's historic inferiority and weakness in cavalry.

[Augustus Lucifer]

The unit design is not my area, but I'll comment on two things and leave the rest for Yelu.

Firstly, it is suggested we have Yue Fei type reforms. I'm curious what is meant by this since any reforms the man may have enacted would be before our timeframe and thus translate in some form to our timeframe.

Secondly, there are a lot of problems with trying to link a cavalry formation with chains, just from the game physics and collision aspects. Killing one 'unit' will not bring down another unit even if we somehow magically made them look like they were connected. The only option in this regard would be to make the 'unit' comprised of 3 interconnected horses as one 'unit'. This means the entire formation would not be chained together though, so after the initial charge the effectiveness of the chains would become moot. As well, I'm not aware if the chains would actually be able to knock men over as part of the mass collision or whether as far as the game is concerned it would just be superfluous.

[Aerrol]

Also, IMO, to accurately portray the Song, they should have the most powerful missile units (especially their crossbows/arbalests), various armored infantry units equipped with unique polearms, and also the most number of different types of units (to simulate the various types of weapons invented and put to use by the Song, such as the earliest gunpowder units, i.e. firelances, primitive grenades, etc.); most of their units should be well-trained. However, most, if not all of their generals should have no stars and most of their units at the start of the campaign map should have no experience to simulate the historic restraints and weaknesses of the Song military system (as the Song emperors were historically more paranoid about internal rebellion than external invasion and created an ineffective military system as a result of this fear). While the Song also get cataphracts (although historically, they were clearly not as good as those of the Jin and the Mongols), their cavalry units should be extremely expensive to simulate the [Southern] Song's historic inferiority and weakness in cavalry.

I agree with almost all of your points, except I wonder at the supposed poorer quality of the Song cataphract. While it is clear that the Jin had a far superior force of cavalry, it was my understanding that this was largely because of the superior numbers of horsemen they could field (especially by this point in time, by which the Jin (Jurchen) had become almost completely sinicized). It would seem to me that the Song cataphract would be garbed with armour equivalent to, if not superior to, their northern counterparts, given the relative rarity and thus worth of horsemen (or rather, horses) to the Southern Song. While I don't have any sources to cite at the moment, I feel this is a logical hypothesis given the high quality metallurgy that the Song Dynasty is known to have possessed. Furthermore, the generally poor track record of Song cataphracts in comparison to their northern cousins can be, in part, attributed to the aforementioned poor Song military leadership.

As such, I propose that for gameplay reasons (diversity) and the reasons stated above, we differentiate the elite Song and Jin cataphracts in the following manner:

Song - Higher armour rating, lower attack and/or charge, more expensive, lower replenishing rates for unit recruitment, possibly a lower numer of men per unit. If the last point were implemented, though, I'd feel that the cavalry would have to be buffed somewhat, especially in attack/charge, to compensate. If possible, a separate 'barded horse', again with more plating - equivalent to more mass in the charge?

Jin - Higher attack, to simulate their 'barbarian' traditions of horsemanship, and otherwise the opposite of the above. So slightly cheaper, higher replenishing rates for unit recruitment, higher max unit capacity per settlement (sorry, I forget the term at the moment...i.e. you can train up to 4 armoured sergeants at one time in a citadel), and possibly larger unit size. EDIT: In addition to higher attack, perhaps higher endurance?

Just my two cents, I can't wait to see the unit line ups for both dynasties!

Edit: If you would like, I can try to dig up some sources to verify my points over the weekend.

[Xuande]

I agree with almost all of your points, except I wonder at the supposed poorer quality of the Song cataphract. While it is clear that the Jin had a far superior force of cavalry, it was my understanding that this was largely because of the superior numbers of horsemen they could field ....

This gives me an idea which might add an additionnal strategic dimension to Song campaigns :

Why not try to develop a new feature linking the quality of Song cavalry to the access to horses ?

For instance, you could create a new trade ressource called "horses" or "battle horses" and locate this ressource in some very specific areas of the campaign map (corresponding to the hitorical horse-breeding areas of the ancient Far-east, that is : the northern steppe, the north-west and the tibetan plateau).

Now, if the Song managed to get access to these ressources it would unlock new units (elite cataphracts, for instance), or give an experience bonus to cavalry units, or reduce their building cost (any of these three options).

By "getting access to this ressource", I mean putting a merchant on it. However, if this is too difficult to implement, you could perhaps imagine other systems, like opening a trade route with a country breeding horses (trade agreement with the Mongols, for instance).

Historically and strategically such a feature would really make sense as "horses" were the equivalent of modern "oil" for past Chinese emperors. Horses were a ressource they were ready to fight for. And it has sometimes been assumed that Tang expansionism towards central Asia was motivated by the need to secure a solid horse source to build a cavalry able to fight the Turks.

Besides, using merchants or trade rights to embody this quest for horses would bring additional strategy & geopolitics into the gameplay. At the start of the game, the Song would be tempted to get trade rights asap with the Mongols in order to get the horses they need to fight the Jin, which would echo the near-alliance between Mongols and Song against the Jin (the Song did contribute to the Mongol victory by harassing the Jin southern border !).

This would also put the emphasis on trade for any Song player, which is also quite accurate historically. The Song needed huge financial ressources to support its million strong army. And thus it needed a dynamic economy. With Quanzhou, it had one of the largest trading ports in the world. And trade of tea, silk and ware was flourishing. Economics should play an important role to win a Song campaign. So anything that encourages to use merchants (like this "horse ressource" suggested feature) would contribute to this.

I thus humbly submit this proposition, wishing it could be taken it into account.

[Aerrol]

For instance, you could create a new trade ressource called "horses" or "battle horses" and locate this ressource in some very specific areas of the campaign map (corresponding to the hitorical horse-breeding areas of the ancient Far-east, that is : the northern steppe, the north-west and the tibetan plateau).

Now, if the Song managed to get access to these ressources it would unlock new units (elite cataphracts, for instance), or give an experience bonus to cavalry units, or reduce their building cost (any of these three options).

I like it! I like it a lot! I hope this is implementable, though with the rather limited modding experience I possess, I have no clue as to how it might be done.

EDIT: Failing the trade resources, we could perhaps link the recruitment of such units to the control of specific horse-rich regions, though that'd be more of a bandaid solution.

[Yelü Dashi]

Thanks guys, all extremely useful info. I suspected the Yue Fei stuff was more myth than reality.
Any visual source material for the laagers ? Your suggestions are already reflected in the Song roster I've been developing, but its nice to know I am heading the right direction.

[RollingWave]

The closest material we have is the late Ming dynasty manuel by Qi Ji-Guan, who created a defensive formation using wagons and cannons to fight the Mongols.



there are several references throughout history of similar tactics. basically just using your waggons as makeshift fortifications. this is obviously the ultimate way to do it.

As for reforms etc. by this era the Song had return to it's original method of Imperial army / local army, armies like the Yue Jia Jun happened because the central government was basically non-existent and the generals and local government were left to fend for themself. that wasn't the case at this time.

basically, as I have wrote in the mod forum, the Song army comprise mostly of

1. Imperial army- generally good training and equipment, but limited presence outside of the capital.

2. Local army- they were the local stationed army, terrible training and equipment.

3. militas- during crisis large militas were usually raised . they often used rather interesting weapons like firelances.

4. auxilleries - occasionaly the Song would inlist the help of other people. not very often though.

[Yelü Dashi]

We have been thinking aboout doing something along these lines. I understand that this could also fit with the Southern Song's attempt to source horses from Dali and Tibetan plateau, the whole 'Tea for Horses'. I also read that they were unsucessful in sources horses from some of their territory as they were being used for agricultural purposes.

Augustus will be able to determine whether trading a resource can unlock new units or increase unit availability.

[ray243]

The Yue Fei like reforms in the sense that generals are allowed more flexibility and train their army with better equipment and etc.

A more professional army.

The reform can be AOR based, if you build a specific building in certain areas, you can start training better troops.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hlight=Yue+Fei

[RollingWave]

Song army was actaully the most professional of all the Chinese dynasties, in that they were paid in cash and it was a permanent employment. professional doesn't always = effective though.

The problem with the Song army was that they were very aware of the fact that most dynasties were eventuallyed toppled from within. so they made every attempt to make sure generals can't get too much power.

Their imperial army were well equiped and (generally) well trained, from a system point of view, their biggest problem was a lack of a retirement plan, so old soliders still tacked on, but they ended up bringing down the overall effectivness.

horsese were also a major problem for them obviously, this wasn't AS MUCH of an issue for the southern Song due to the fact that river war was the main focus.

[Khorney]

IIRC, chariots were not as important by this point as they were, say, the spring and autumn period. i imagine there were a few token chariots for generals and such, but they had mostly been fazed out in favour of the much more adaptable Calvary.

jaques gernet has quite an interesting section on song military;
- continued traditions of use of mercenaries (nomads, barbarians, mountaneers)
- conscription was employed (this had been done since warring states [~400b.c.])

and mentions a couple of specific unit types: (i believe this is wade-giles, as opposing to pinyin)

- elite palace guard (chin-chun)
- peasant militias (hsiang-ping)
- specialist frontier units (fan-ping)

> specifically to calvary (not chariots) he mentions that there had been a consistent shortage of horses since the occupation of northern breeding territories by the Hsia empire. as Yalu mentioned, Wang An-shih attempted to breed horses in the agricultural zone of the lower yellow river, but had been unsuccessful

> he talks about specific selection processes for elite units, and rigerous training. also, on the point of professional armies, it specifically mentions how they were often over-manned and undisciplined during down time, with discharged mercenaries regularly turning to banditry. also these large armies were often a drain on the economy
> as mentioned before there was development of new military technologies, including a form of ballistae, repeating crossbows, and some kind of 'tank', but he doesn't go into details about any of these
> mentions a parrafin flamethrower alluded to in a military treaties that emerged in 1044, and describes it's function very similar to the current byzantine unit's flamethrower "a mechcanism consisting of a double acting piston which made it possible to produce a continuous jet of flame"

> mention of gunpowder in 1044...and rudimentary firearms, including primitive grenades(p'i-il huo-ch'iu), catapults with incindery projectiles.
-including a catapult that fired explosive projectiles (p'i-li-p'ao)
- also mentions the current mongol rocket launchers emerging in the 13th century (t'ieh-p'ao), were in development as early as 1132.
-1280 in wars vs mongols and song, mortars with iron casing appeared


i'll try and get those into pinyin for you at some point, but that should give you some ideas for the moment, i've got a couple more books on it lying around somewhere

[Khorney]

shoutout to the general public here, but has anyone come across an english version of the wujing zongyao? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wujing_Zongyao) this will greatly aid our work here as it has alot of detail about song dynasty warfare and military technology

[dick178]

http://kcjun.5d6d.com/forum-13-1.html
here's a lot of book about the world history.

[jalen911]

Song's army should have very good trainning and good equipment. Esp they should have good armour.

I

[jalen911]

These pics are about Song's troops.