AUH: Suggestions and Ideas

[Augustus Lucifer]

I have a question about Wonder's location:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w.../VN/wonder.jpg

as you see in this link. In that time, Daiviet have 4 wonder named " Four Great Mental". But unfortunate, two of them (1,2) too near Thang Long capital. Besides these wonder, we really have some more special building, but really too boastful to call it is wonder ( They don't huge as 5 wonder I have just say), and it too near Thang Long capital, too. I see may be we have three way for this problem.

1. Mods can combine all wonder beside Thang Long capital into this Capital, made this city became a " special city, where the city combine with Wonders."? Althout this will be very dangerous for Daiviet faction if they lost their capital.
2. we will only creat few among 4 wonders. We will only made wonders numbered 3 and 4 in this image. But it may be don't good ( we only have 2 of 4 " Four Great Metal". What will happen if player play game, they see " This is one of 4 wonder named " Four Great Metal" but they only find out two of them. They will ask " Where two more wonder???")
3. this way is may be is the good way for everyone, but is the terrible way for history: we will... change Wonder's location like that:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w87/kohaku-sama/VN/wonderchange.jpg

What way mods can made???

Our map is fairly large, so 1 coordinate on it which is what any strat building occupies is not all that much. So it's possible all of those can be included, or combined as multiple structures can occupy one 'model'. I believe vietanh posted something to this effect in the dev forum, Wundai is on break right now but he'll have something to play around with when he gets back at any rate.

There should be hand grenade unit in the sung army. And is there?

I assume you mean 'thunderbombers' or something to that effect? This has been mentioned a few times, there's not a unit like this currently on the roster to my knowledge but I'm not fully aware of a couple units being developed. We've yet to have a historian make a serious case for such a unit, so if a case can be made there's always the possibility.

[History]

Our map is fairly large, so 1 coordinate on it which is what any strat building occupies is not all that much. So it's possible all of those can be included, or combined as multiple structures can occupy one 'model'. I believe vietanh posted something to this effect in the dev forum, Wundai is on break right now but he'll have something to play around with when he gets back at any rate.



I assume you mean 'thunderbombers' or something to that effect? This has been mentioned a few times, there's not a unit like this currently on the roster to my knowledge but I'm not fully aware of a couple units being developed. We've yet to have a historian make a serious case for such a unit, so if a case can be made there's always the possibility.

Yes, hand grenade or naffatun, or correctly in chinese "Zhen Tian Lei", gunpowder packed in metal or ceramic pots. This was also suggested in a manuel "Wujing Zongyao" (Compilation of Military Classics) during 1044. The metal pieces of the grenade would go through armour when explode. Joseph Needham also noted in his "Science and Civilisation in China" volumes, which indicated Wujing Zongyao contained recipes of prototype hand grenades.

There are two types of this "hand grenade", one type is mounted on a trebuchet and one type is hand held. this useage of this was demonstrated in a seige of Keifeng in 1126, which successfully repelled Jin attack by using the grenades. It was also recorded in Jin zhi (Jin official history records) about the usage and a factory in Keifeng that produces this.

[Scipio praeditus]

I would like to suggest the rice paddies on the campaign map to be redesigned, the monotone blueish/green as they are in the preview looks really bad.
Something with varying lush greens, browns, okers and even blood reds (because of certain bacterial and algal growth), like in the following links, would look alot better.

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/3938935.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/colloidfarl/264843304/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/magnusvk/2349397619/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imageo/2443016748/

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/En...RW004967&ext=1

The following link contains lots of vacation pics of someones holiday to Indonesia, but scrolling nearly all the way down you'll see a nice aerial pic of coastal paddy fields, again with varying colours.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/Indonesia/Highlights/index.html

Perhaps several different textures could be made, like square fields along the coast lines and on any flat country, and more irregular shaped ones in highlands and valleys (like in the following link).

http://pixdaus.com/?sort=tag&tag=rice%20paddies

Another thing that would look nice would be for them to have slightly different coloration according to the relative geological area, meaning relative to the different ground types across the continent.

One last thing that would be really nice would be for them to reflect the sky under a certain angle (like the sea but not al across the map, to reflect the curvature of the earth).

No doubt the campaign map is still a work in progress, I just wanted to stress the importance of a non monotonous map.

[yevon]

The more question about wonders. I heard someone say that mod only accept wonder had be built before mod's timeline ( before 1171), that is true. Because if that is true, at least, Khmer and Pagan will lost many wonder because it built in 1171 - 1271:

Khmer will lost:Angkor Thom ( one great wonder, the combine many wonder in one area)
Pagan will lost: Mahabodhi Temple and Htilominlo Temple

One more, someone say that we can't use instauration to make a destroyed wonder. Exp: We have a wonder A had be destroyed and don't have any image about it, but we have one building have same architectural engineering and timeline as that wonder, the only different is this building smaller the true wonder. We can use that building's image, resize it as huge as the true wonder, to remake our wonder's image ?

Ex: In Daiviet faction, one wonder is "Buddha statue in Quynh Lam Temple" had be destroyed, but we still have another Buddha statue have image as same as "Buddha statue in Quynh Lam Temple" ( had be built in same timeline, too), it only smaller which in Quynh Lam Temple.



In image is the remake image of Buddha statue in Phat Tich Temple, one status have same timline and architectural engineering as which in Quynh Lam ( only smaller a little). we can use that image, rehandle a little to use for wonder "Buddha statue in Quynh Lam Temple"?

Because "that guy" talk with me that mod only accept image of wonder. Because of that, even when we have a image about one different building have same timeline, same architectural engineering as original wonder ( only smaller original wonder), we can't use this image.

[Wundai]

That guy?

[Augustus Lucifer]

We could possibly include things built in our time frame, they just wouldn't pop up until whatever year they were built in. Obviously we'd want to shy away from things built after 1230 because players would not often get that far in the mod, so the earlier the better. By the way the time frame is 1180-1280, we pushed it back a few years a couple months ago after discussing the merits and demerits of doing so.

[yevon]

@Wundai: that only is one players's idea. He play Rome Total War and Medieval 2 and say that mod can't add wonder had be built after the mod's beginning timeline, and say more about the problem "image's wonder had be destroyed"

and the second question about "image's wonder had be destroyed" ????

[Augustus Lucifer]

Medieval II does not have 'Wonders' like Rome does. Our 'wonders' are a system we devised that uses other methods to get them on the map, so it doesn't involve any allowances or limitations the RTW wonders system may have had.

[Killerbee]

Medieval II does not have 'Wonders' like Rome does. Our 'wonders' are a system we devised that uses other methods to get them on the map, so it doesn't involve any allowances or limitations the RTW wonders system may have had.

Then how do you make wonders ? Are they just resources with custom models and textures ?

[Yelü Dashi]

No, otherwise we'd be limited to 26 wonders, we are using an ingenious method that tricks the game engine into thinking the model is a static building, when its actually an strat map admiral or even a general. It's slightly complicated and we are still testing out a few things, but the buildings you see in our previews are all implemented using this method. It gives us the ability to add a great many unique wonders across the campaign map.

[Nakandakari Lobato]

At another subforum (Pro Deo Et Rege) there's a add-on that at adds titles to Generals as they win and get noticed for being great leaders. While this may not be historically accurate for Asian generals (I'm thinking samurai leaders), wouldn't it be cool to have something like it. Say, the title being the "Hero of Somesuch Battle, or Defeater of Noname General or Ronin Killer.

NL

[Wundai]

Well if my memory serves me right in another period (Sengoku Jidai) names were given to Samurai Leaders/Generals.
Thinking of Kagetora (Kenshin) Uesugi and Shingen Takeda here.
Maybe something similar was done in our time-period and not only for Japan?

[castroite]

1. The weapons are too good.
In the middle age, More troops are equiped simply. Most of the infantry didn't have armour. Of course,some elite troops had hauberk or Plate , but They were in the minority.To be the same as the real history, I think the advanced branches should be more expense and players should pay more to keep them.

2.troops should need food.
In the game , a troop can conque the world without supply. a troop can run 1000 kilometres in enemy's territory.But in real world , this is impossible. Actually ,Song won most of the battle with Mongolia, but Song can't conque Mongolia. Beause the distant steppe is barren, Song's supply can't reach the distant steppe. But can get food from the rich city which it conqued.

3.In real middle age, if An army is far from its motherland, The morale of the forces will sank to a very low level. Only if the soldiers get enough fortune for this expedition.

4、Government Efficency.
terrain of China is too lever, so the Song and Jing kept a big Empire with a very low Govement Efficecy. people of Song is rich, the Government of Song can't convert the people's wealth to government receipts, beause the country is too big and the government did't have highway and telegraph to manage it.
A city's efficiency will be lower if it's farther from the capital. A city's efiiiciency should will higher if it had more dock and road. A city's efficency will be higher if the tax rate is low.
With a low effiicency, the tax income will be low, and government should pay more to build communal facilities.
A city with very low efficency will appear Rebels.

5.Chinese religion ," RU ", is a religion which can raise a city's efficency, when other religion made people happy.

6.Actually, just as the real history, make a vassal in far district is a good way to solve the low Government Efficency. I suggest the mod team give more order to suzerain for managing vassals.for example , ask vassals give 50% tax income to suzerain every year.

7.In the game, The general is too little, can you give players a button to employ a inexperienced general?

[Zombimode]

7.In the game, The general is too little, can you give players a button to employ a inexperienced general?

Do you mean there are to few generals? Well, matter of perspektive I guess. But recruitable generals (who arent family members) are easy to implement. You just have to make a unit with the property "general unit" (like all bodyguards) recruitable in the EDB.

[cossacks368]

Suggestion~

new unit ~

[RollingWave]

1. The weapons are too good.
In the middle age, More troops are equiped simply. Most of the infantry didn't have armour. Of course,some elite troops had hauberk or Plate , but They were in the minority.To be the same as the real history, I think the advanced branches should be more expense and players should pay more to keep them.

2.troops should need food.
In the game , a troop can conque the world without supply. a troop can run 1000 kilometres in enemy's territory.But in real world , this is impossible. Actually ,Song won most of the battle with Mongolia, but Song can't conque Mongolia. Beause the distant steppe is barren, Song's supply can't reach the distant steppe. But can get food from the rich city which it conqued.

3.In real middle age, if An army is far from its motherland, The morale of the forces will sank to a very low level. Only if the soldiers get enough fortune for this expedition.

4、Government Efficency.
terrain of China is too lever, so the Song and Jing kept a big Empire with a very low Govement Efficecy. people of Song is rich, the Government of Song can't convert the people's wealth to government receipts, beause the country is too big and the government did't have highway and telegraph to manage it.
A city's efficiency will be lower if it's farther from the capital. A city's efiiiciency should will higher if it had more dock and road. A city's efficency will be higher if the tax rate is low.
With a low effiicency, the tax income will be low, and government should pay more to build communal facilities.
A city with very low efficency will appear Rebels.

1. That really depend on the type of units, militias often go with little to no armor (usually some paddings, or some could afford / find a light suit ) however, the Song dynasty manuals clearly depict their standard issue armor, and it would be assumed that the standard units (i.e non militias) were adequetly armored, from the documents I found on Xi-Xia also seem to support this . their primary units would be given standard armor, even their support units were usually issued bracers / leg protectors / bows and arrows and were suppose to bring their own armor. people back then care about their lives too you know, if they KNOW they're going to war they would try to field SOMETHING to help them stay alive. This era is also noted for being one of the more heavily armored onces in Asian history.

2+3 some other mods like SS have logisitical system, though the M2TW game itself has a lot of limitations on this. and the Song dynasty didn't go into Mongolia, they were fighting the Khitans in their early stages and that battle ground is modern day Heibei, the times where logistical problem was really evident in chinese warfare into mongolia was the Han dynasty about 1500 years before this game started.

4. government efficency is not like today of course, but it is horriblly wrong to assume that the wealth of the Song government is no different to that of say..... Temujin at the beginning of his conquest.


4.

[evilsai]

I've been following up on this development for a while. How is the Jin Dynasty going to be modeled in the mod? From what I've read, the preceding/vanquished Liao Dynasty had a similar problem to the Song's War vs Peace factions - Nomad vs Sedentary Mindset (ie whether the dynasty is becoming too 'Chinese'/Sinicized). Did the Jin Dynasty have same issue historically? I haven't seen any literature suggesting that but it seems that the Jurchen could lost their edge against the Mongols much as the Khitans did a century before. Then again, they made a huge tactical mistake of getting half of their army wiped out early on (Battle of the Badger Mouth according to Wikipedia) and fought a two front war.

[Marcion]

I've been following up on this development for a while. How is the Jin Dynasty going to be modeled in the mod? From what I've read, the preceding/vanquished Liao Dynasty had a similar problem to the Song's War vs Peace factions - Nomad vs Sedentary Mindset (ie whether the dynasty is becoming too 'Chinese'/Sinicized). Did the Jin Dynasty have same issue historically? I haven't seen any literature suggesting that but it seems that the Jurchen could lost their edge against the Mongols much as the Khitans did a century before. Then again, they made a huge tactical mistake of getting half of their army wiped out early on (Battle of the Badger Mouth according to Wikipedia) and fought a two front war.

From we've seen, the Jin had become heavily sinicized by this time, and made heavy use of Han conscripts in addition to Jurchen troops. But they also had far greater access to cavalry than the Song did. I see them as sort of being right on the boundry between a fully sedentary society, and a nomad one, as far a military goes. They'd be easier to play than the Mongols or Khitai, but not as straightforward as the Song.

[Vaz]

Han? Forgive me, but my Chinese Lore is from RotK and Dynasty Warriors, and so is a little shifty, but I thought the Han dynasty was pre 3rd Century AD?

[Yelü Dashi]

Han? Forgive me, but my Chinese Lore is from RotK and Dynasty Warriors, and so is a little shifty, but I thought the Han dynasty was pre 3rd Century AD?

Han doesn't refer the dynasty, but rather the ethnic group (ethnic Chinese). The Jin dynasty was led by the Jurchens, a Tungusic people from the North East (Manchuria). They were not nomads, but still excelled in horsemanship. As has been alluded to, the tension in the Jin court was between the "sincizers": those that wanted to adopt more Han culture, and nativists: who called for a return to Jurchen customs/cultures.

Regardless of these problems, and their turning a blind eye the rising power on the steppe (Sino-Mongol frontier) the Jin were THE major superpower at the start of AUH. And I would imagine that they would be easier to play aggressively as, esp compared to the Song.