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  1. #1
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    Default hoplite phalanxes

    in eb2, all the hoplites should have phalanxes, and hold their spears normally.
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    Smeel's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Oh really? And how is this "Normal" then?

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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    like in rtw. underhand, not overhand
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    But EB is a historic realism mod, and hoplites held their spears overhand.

    PS: Will hoplites also have swords, now that the AI can swap weapons??
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  5. #5

    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Overhand, much more historic and read up there is alot of evidence for overhand, but not enough for entire underhand hoplite phalanxs

  6. #6

    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    I am just curious, why does the history channel shows the athenian hoplites holding their spear underhand but over the shield?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Quote Originally Posted by John-117 View Post
    in eb2, all the hoplites should have phalanxes, and hold their spears normally.
    It is you!!

    Go away already.

    Also, because of what exactly ?

    Quote Originally Posted by chenkai11
    I am just curious, why does the history channel shows the athenian hoplites holding their spear underhand but over the shield?
    Because they're a bunch of clueless tossers ?

  8. #8

    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Quote Originally Posted by John-117 View Post
    in eb2, all the hoplites should have phalanxes, and hold their spears normally.
    let me not be rude...
    ..Why ?
    Its their idea (mod ) not yours... if you wanted to contribute to the mod , you would at least , give links to pages of history that you got yur _info_ ...

  9. #9

    Icon3 Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Guy With No Imagination View Post
    Overhand, much more historic and read up there is alot of evidence for overhand, but not enough for entire underhand hoplite phalanxs
    Actually, hoplites probably used both underhand and overhand styles, whatever suited the situation best. However, that's probably too much for the animation engine to handle, and since most art shows them using overhand, the EB team used that. I read somewhere that CA also intended to use overhand, but couldn't get the hit-boxes worked out. That sounds rather dodgy to me, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by chenkai11 View Post
    I am just curious, why does the history channel shows the athenian hoplites holding their spear underhand but over the shield?
    HC is popular history, not academic history. Popular history regularly lags behind, and tends not to challenge popular images.

    Quote Originally Posted by John-117 View Post
    in eb2, all the hoplites should have phalanxes, and hold their spears normally.
    John-117, we appreciate your enthusiasm for EB, but not your way of making suggestions. I don't think you quite realize how much research went into making EB: if something is implemented differently than you expect, there probably is a reason for it. It's more polite to ask for that reason rather than to assume the team is wrong and demand it should be changed. Especially when you don't back-up your statements with sources.

  10. #10
    John-117's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    look, i just want to have greeks using phalanxes just like any historical site you go to says they did. if there is some other way to mod them in, i'd be happy to do that. but i would need someone to tell me how
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Quote Originally Posted by John-117 View Post
    look, i just want to have greeks using phalanxes just like any historical site you go to says they did. if there is some other way to mod them in, i'd be happy to do that. but i would need someone to tell me how
    The hoplite phalanx used the spear overhead because when the shields locked together and the rear line hoplites push the front line there was simply no room for the spear to use it underhand it is that simple..... imho.....

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  12. #12

    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Actually, the consensus of academic historical orthodoxy is that over-arm spear wielding was most likely the norm. See Van Wees, Lendon, V.D. Hanson, Anderson, Lazenby ect ect ect. Here's a quote from Hoplites, edited by Hanson, from an article by J.F. Lazenby

    How are these initial thrusts normally delivered? The language Xenophon uses in the Anabasis (e.g. 1.2.17, 6.5.25) certainly seems to suggest that spears were lowered from the shoulder to the underarm position, below the waist, as the advance began. ... But both Tyrtaios (19.12) and Kallinos (1.10) describe soldiers as carrying their spears aloft (anaschomenos).
    It is true that the [underarm hold] is sometimes depicted on vases, but where it is, the scenes are invariably duels between individuals. There does not seem to be any example of lines of hoplites advancing with spears levelled below the waist. Those that have survived, from the Chigi vase onward, invariably show hoplites carrying spears overarm.
    Here are a couple of examples of what he means. (Big pics, I'll hide them)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Here is an interesting article by Paul Bardunias, published in Ancient Warfare Magazine, which is a description of the mechanics of hoplite phalanxes.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Aspis: Surviving Hoplite Battle.


    Agiselaos II of Sparta stood victorious on the battlefield of Koronea in 394 B.C. when he learned that the Thebans had defeated his allies and were looting his baggage train. Showing more bravery than tactical sense, he formed his phalanx directly across the Theban line of retreat rather than taking them in the flank or rear as they passed. Sources do not reveal how many ranks of hoplites faced each other in this struggle, but the Spartans likely formed in 12, while the Thebans may have formed as they had at Delium, in 25 ranks, for a similar breakthrough attempt. The Spartan force, “…crashed against the Thebans front to front: and setting shields against shields they pushed, fought, killed, and were killed.” (Xenophon, Hellenica 4.3.19). The Spartans were victorious, but the Theban loss obscures the fact that their extra-deep phalanx broke through the Spartan phalanx. A description of the aftermath of the battle conveys the brutality of the clash: “a weird spectacle met the eye… the earth stained with blood, friend and foe lying dead side by side, shields crushed to pieces, spears snapped in two, daggers bared of their sheaths, some on the ground, some embedded in the bodies, some yet gripped by the hand.” (Xenophon, Agiselaos 2.1.14).

    What Xenophon described is the result of a phase of hoplite battle termed Othismos. The term implies “pushing”, and has traditionally been taken to mean a clash between the massed ranks of hoplites where the goal was literally to push back the other formation until it broke due to a loss of cohesion and failure of morale.

    The mechanics, and even existence, of this mass-scrum have been hotly debated over the last half-century in a series of papers whose titles imply nothing less than a protestant revolution. One proponent of the “heretical” view points out that no other army fought through such a pushing match: “Should it be proved that the othismos really was a contest of massed shoving…It would be necessary to explain how the Greeks were able to fight in this unique way, and why they did so.” (Goldsworthy)

    The answer to Goldsworthy’s challenge lies in understanding the hoplite shield, which is often referred to as a hoplon and seen as lending its name to the hoplite. However, the term hoplon can refer to any implement of war. The specific term is aspis and sometimes rendered as Argive aspis, although the connection to Argos, either as originator or mass- producer, is unclear. The shield may have originated as early as the late 8th or early 7th century B.C. and survived in nearly identical form for at least three hundred years.

    Round to slightly oval in outline, normally 80 cm to 1 m in diameter and about approximately 7.5 kg weight, its characteristic features are a convex profile and a robust, offset outer rim. A surviving Etruscan example in the Museo Gregoriano of the Vatican that appears similar to less well preserved examples from Greece was constructed of 20-30 cm poplar wood planks glued together horizontally to form a solid block, then turned on a lathe to form the characteristic shallow dome shape that left the flattened center of the core thinner than the curving outer edges. This shield has a diameter of 82cm, a depth of 10 cm and a 4.5 cm off-set rim reinforced with wooden laminates. Construction methods may have changed with time because shields represented on the 7th century Chigi vase appear to be made of layers of thin wooden laths. The shield’s inner face was usually covered with leather and sometimes highly decorated. The face of the Vatican shield is covered in a seamless .5 mm layer of bronze that overlaps the inner face of the rim by 4 cm. This fully bronze-faced front of the shield is commonly portrayed, but archaeological finds show that bronze plating of the rim alone, perhaps with a bronze blazon, was more common. Some depictions show additional metal bands reinforcing the inner face of the shield.

    In use the aspis was supported by a double grip system. At the center of the shield’s concave interior was a bronze loop, the Porpax, through which the left forearm was placed to bear the weight of the shield. The porpax was secured to the shield’s inner face by long vertical bronze straps. This structure could be one piece or made so that the armband was removable, as the Spartans are said to have done to render their shields unusable to rebellious Helot serfs. A second grip, the antilabe, was for the left hand and was placed near the rim. The grip was a pair of metal staples through which a rope passed that traveled through four or more metal rings spaced around the inside perimeter of the shield.

    This peculiar shield’s evolution is not well understood. Round, bronze-faced shields were common in the region prior to its appearance, but these were generally single-grip and did not display the twin features of domed shape and off-set rim. Assyrian infantry carried large, deeply convex shields of bronze, but they had a single grip and were cone-shaped. Urartian bronze shields, which have been excavated at Toprakkale near Lake Van in Anatolia, were domed with offset rims. Their diameter, 77 cm to 1 m, differed little from hoplite shields. These had a triple-grip system that has been interpreted to be a single hand grip and two points of attachment for a neck strap or telamon, but may have influenced Greek design.

    Much attention has been paid to the convex shape of the aspis. Convex or sloped armor presents a greater thickness of wood to be penetrated by weapons impacting at oblique angles. This fact alone might explain the convex Assyrian shields, for their cone shape is the optimal profile to maximize this effect. The Greek shield is less well adapted for this, since the greatest slope is relegated to a small area at the outer edge, while the broad face of the shield is a shallow curve. Curvature also insures that chopping weapons will be impact on a broad area rather than biting into the rim of a shield. The semi-cylindrical examples of the Roman scutum may be made for this, but in the aspis the curvature by being confined to a narrow band at the edges is too extreme to maximize this form of protection and the robust rim would seem to negate its necessity. That the aspis is thinner at its center than at the edges differs from other shield types and indicates that protection from penetration was not the only factor in its design.

    The uniqueness of this shield is apparent if we analyze it from a structural engineer’s perspective. A domed profile can support great weight without collapsing and indicates a load-bearing function. The dome of the aspis is shallow and less efficient, so increased force on the flattened surface will cause the rim will be thrust outward. Trusses or supports that resist this outward force are needed to keep the shallow dome from popping inside out like an umbrella in the wind. In the aspis, this was accomplished by its thickened rim. The off-set design presents the maximum thickness of wood against the force attempting to push the rim outwards. A bronze sheath adds to this as the tensile strength of the metal resists stretching. On some depictions, narrow metal reinforcements are seen around the inner surface. These add little protection, but would aid greatly in supporting the integrity of the load-bearing dome. The enigmatic rope that runs around the inner surface and forms the antilabe may have had its origins as a cable truss to add additional support to the inner face of the dome. The Greeks used such cable trusses, upozwmata, to keep their ships from bending up in the center, or "hogging," from pressure on the hull.
    Those who support a literal interpretation of the othismos as a pushing match have pointed out that the hollow design of the shield allows the left shoulder to be placed within it both to support the weight of the shield and to allow for a sideways pushing stance, while the flattened face provides a broad surface for pushing against the men in front of you. While correct in some details, this scheme fails when we apply a realistic model of othismos mechanics.

    John Keegan, in The Face of Battle, noted that a crowd is the opposite of an army when he applied crowd psychology to formed men, and that crowd-like behavior signaled immanent defeat, but the ancient Greeks harnessed the force of a panicked crowd and turned it into an offensive weapon. The modeling of how force is generated in crowds is in its infancy, but the destructive potential is shown by the many tragic deaths caused by crowds colliding during sports events or fleeing in panic.

    The outcome of a collision of ranked hoplites is not simply a matter of the number of men on either side. Most of the force applied by the rear ranks will be simply absorbed by the mass of their own men in front of them. In order to maximize the pushing force of a crowd, the distance between bodies must be minimized to the point that individuals lose control of their own movement and the group becomes one mass pushing in synchrony. In crowds of this density, shock waves are produced that can tear off clothing, lift people off their feet, and propel them 3 m or more through the air. These forces are generated by a domino effect of people leaning against each other and pushing in the same direction at once, and have been shown to exceed 1000 lbs of force and bend metal retaining structures. Death occurs in these conditions due to compressive asphyxia when the diaphragm is crushed and breathing is impossible.

    Men must protect against asphyxiation if they are to subject themselves to these forces for the duration of battle. This is the aspis’ primary function and a role for which it is uniquely designed. The shield’s large diameter arose from the need to hold the shield across the front of the body, its flat rim resting on the upper chest and thighs, while the depth protected the diaphragm and allowed the hoplite to draw breath. The central position of the porpax ensured proper alignment, but left about a third of the shield extending beyond the hoplite to the left. As individuals with their shields tight to their chest came up behind the overhanging shields of men to their right, overlapping right over left, a phalanx assembled like building blocks. The job of rear rank veterans, who could push with their shoulders, was not simply to keep men from fleeing battle, but to keep them packed belly to back and as tightly as possible. The lethal zone in a crowd of this density extended well back into the phalanx, so the risk of death by asphyxiation was shared more equally among ranks than the danger from weapon strikes.

    Along with the characteristic aspis, a second element of the panoply associated with the emergence of hoplites is the sauroter, a specialized butt-spike for the spear. The sauroter has been linked to phalanx combat through its use as an auxillary weapon, but this role was secondary to its use as a staff in steadying a man in the rear ranks and allowing him to add the strength of his right arm in pushing.

    Weapons could still be used in the press of othismos, as the raised right arm would have just enough room to brandish a weapon in an overhand strike in the “V” formed by overlapped shields. The downward stabbing strike of a spear would require very little range of motion to be deadly, while the point-heavy chopping swords commonly used relied on a snap of the wrist more than a broad slash. The most deadly weapon in this press would be the short Laconian dagger stabbing in a downward strike from above. If the othismos gradually became the phase of battle that decided hoplite battles, this may explain the abandonment of body armor and enclosed helms for the high-peaked pilos that protected from overhead strikes. Any benefit of armor in the crowd would be outweighed by the need for increased stamina and the ability to breathe freely and hear commands.

    That the Spartans developed a specialized weapon for the othismos is perhaps indicative of their role in perfecting this phase of combat. We are told that the Spartans did not excel in combat because of the martial arts teaching of hoplomachoi, but because of their singing and dancing. The reason for this is obvious if we accept the model presented above. Accidental synchronicity of effort is what builds lethal shock waves in crowds, so men who have trained to coordinate their motions through group dancing and rhythmically chanted songs will have an advantage in producing and amplifying forces in the othismos. Theban success in battle was explained in part by their skill in wrestling which develops kinesthetic sense and ability to read and anticipate motions.

    Thebes met Sparta in battle again at Leuktra in 371 B.C. in the ultimate othismos battle. In an outcome presaged by Koronea, the Thebans countered Spartan skill with mass. The 12 ranks of Sparta collided with 50 ranks of Theban hoplites, who had added Boetian merchants and baggage-carriers to the rear of the phalanx. Our model of othismos helps us understand what happened next. The deep Theban formation did not crash into the Spartans and immediately drive it from the field. What followed was an almost tidal play of crowd against crowd. The synchronized Spartans could push back the Thebans, as they did to claim their wounded King, but each time they did this they packed them tighter, forcing them into a coordination that they may not have achieved on their own. There may have been long lulls where exhausted men simply fought for breath in the loosening crowds. Epaminondas’ called-for “one more step” was in reality a shuffle, but the Thebans eventually gained ground in a ratcheting advance that broke the Spartan ranks and their hegemony.

    The othismos turned a phalanx into more than sum of its ranked hoplites. To fight within such a crowd was to submerge one’s individuality, and facing one was like standing against single scale-breasted beast, a many-headed hydra of down-thrusting weapons. Perhaps it is fitting that the states who mastered it were both descended from Heracles.



    Paul M. Bardunias is not a historian, but an entomologist who studies group behavior in social insects- termites and ants. On the theory that one Myrmidon is as good as another, he is applying concepts from his background in biology and crowd behavior to an examination of the evolution of Greek weapons and tactics. He was born to the topic, his family comes from Sparta, but this is his first publication specifically on Greek warfare. He lives and works in Hollywood, Florida, USA.


    Further reading:

    J. Fruin, The Causes and Prevention of Crowd Disasters, in: R. A. Smith, J. F. Dickie (Eds.), Engineering for Crowd Safety. Elsevier, New York, 1993.

    A. K. Goldsworthy, The Othismos, Myths and Heresies: The Nature of Hoplite Battle. War in History 4: 1, 1-26, 1997.

    V. D. Hanson, The Western Way of War: Infantry battle in Classical Greece. New York, Hodder & Stoughton, 1989.

    J. Keegan, The Face of Battle. London, Cape, 1976.

    R. D. Luginbill, Othismos: The Importance of Mass-Shove in Hoplite Warfare. Phoenix, 48:1, 51-61, 1994.

    N. Secunda, Greek Hoplite 480-323 BC. Osprey Publishing Ltd., 2000.

    A. Snodgrass, Early Greek Armour and Weapons. Edinburgh University Press, 1964.


    In addition, a quick perusal of the re-enactment community shows that most think that an over-arm spear technique is the one best suited to the hoplite phalanx. here is a video of some re-eanctors, worth watching all the way through to the end.

    The ultra-close order 'pushing match' model of classical phalanx battles is not without its critics, and some of the questions they raise are good ones, but all in all there doesn't seem to be a better and more consistent model than the one that most scholars down the years have accepted. Certainly, there is no pictographic evidence anywhere of phalanxes holding their spears underhand. I think Ludens is right, and that there was considerable variation according to the situation, but the M2TW engine can't really show that.

    So John, do you have anything at all to support your (rude) demand that EB2 ignore all the actual evidence of how hoplite combat occured? Please, share. You assert that 'any historical site' will do so, but I can't find a single one.

    I had an idea on another forum: I have read that M2TW doesn't handle secondary weapons very well, and that hoplites with swords would whip them out as soon as combat began. But what if you gave the hoplites a secondary weapon of a broken spear? They could start out with long spears, wielded over-arm, and then switch to a shorter, under-arm 'spear' with the sauroter butt-spike as the sharp bit. This might actually look like the real thing, eh? But since it's still a spear, stating the unit would not be as problematical, maybe.

    Huh. Spoil tags don't work on txcenter? Anyone know how to do spoilers here?

    Thanks Mr. Smeel. Nice avatar.
    Last edited by oudysseos; January 13, 2009 at 09:51 AM.

  13. #13
    Smeel's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Use [ spoiler] instead of [spoil]

  14. #14

    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    EB Hoplites won't have the underhand phalanx because its ahistorical. John, you in particular seem to be having a spot of trouble with the whole "historical thing". It's up to EB, not you. Stop making these suggestions, or at least present them in a less abrupt and rude way!

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    John-117's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    ok, so they dont have to have over hand spears. but i'd really love to see them using phalanxes. if you're going for history, maybe you should take out the spartans. in the 3rd century bc, there was a helot rebellion, and the spartan army was forced to return to farming, rather than the helots. because of this, the spartan army was reduced to the standards of a normal army, such as athens had.
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  16. #16
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    John, EB is made by Historians who study history. Some even for a living. No offense but I think that they know their stuff better then you do.

    And the Phalanxes of vannila Rome wasn't how they really fought so it will not be how they will be portrayed in the game.

    And about the helot rebbelion forcing Spartans to act as ordinary men, I don't think that ever happened?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    actualy, it did. and about you guys all saying how greek hoplites didn't use phalanx, read the wikipedia article! look right here:
    Hoplite Armament

    Each hoplite provided their own equipment. The primary hoplite weapon was a spear around 2.4 meters in length called a doru. Although accounts of its length vary, it is usually now believed to have been seven to nine feet long (~2.1 - ~2.7m). It was held one-handed, the other hand holding the hoplite's shield.
    It is a matter of contention among historians whether the hoplite used the spear overarm or underarm. Held underarm, the thrusts would have been less powerful but under more control, and vice versa.
    The early history of the phalanx is largely one of combat between hoplite armies from competing Greek city-states. The usual result was rather identical, inflexible formations pushing against each other until one broke. The potential of the phalanx to achieve something more was demonstrated at Battle of Marathon (490 BC). Facing the much larger army of Darius I, the Athenians thinned out their phalanx and consequently lengthened their front, to avoid being outflanked. However, even a reduced-depth phalanx proved unstoppable to the lightly armed Persian infantry. After routing the Persian wings, the hoplites on the Athenian wings wheeled inwards, destroying the elite troop at the Persian centre, resulting in a crushing victory for Athens. Throughout the Greco-Persian Wars the hoplite phalanx was to prove superior to the Persian infantry (e.g. The battles of Thermopylae and Plataea).

    what more proof do yo need? oh and for the helot rebellion, i swear to god ive read the article. i cant find it, but as soon as i do ill post it
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  18. #18

    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Quote Originally Posted by John-117 View Post
    yah, ok. because historians love playing video games right? the eb team are probably very interested in history, but are by no means historians. and real historians do say that hoplites used phalanxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by John-117 View Post
    actualy, it did. and about you guys all saying how greek hoplites didn't use phalanx, read the wikipedia article! look right here:
    Hoplite Armament

    Each hoplite provided their own equipment. The primary hoplite weapon was a spear around 2.4 meters in length called a doru. Although accounts of its length vary, it is usually now believed to have been seven to nine feet long (~2.1 - ~2.7m). It was held one-handed, the other hand holding the hoplite's shield.
    It is a matter of contention among historians whether the hoplite used the spear overarm or underarm. Held underarm, the thrusts would have been less powerful but under more control, and vice versa.
    The early history of the phalanx is largely one of combat between hoplite armies from competing Greek city-states. The usual result was rather identical, inflexible formations pushing against each other until one broke. The potential of the phalanx to achieve something more was demonstrated at Battle of Marathon (490 BC). Facing the much larger army of Darius I, the Athenians thinned out their phalanx and consequently lengthened their front, to avoid being outflanked. However, even a reduced-depth phalanx proved unstoppable to the lightly armed Persian infantry. After routing the Persian wings, the hoplites on the Athenian wings wheeled inwards, destroying the elite troop at the Persian centre, resulting in a crushing victory for Athens. Throughout the Greco-Persian Wars the hoplite phalanx was to prove superior to the Persian infantry (e.g. The battles of Thermopylae and Plataea).

    what more proof do yo need? oh and for the helot rebellion, i swear to god ive read the article. i cant find it, but as soon as i do ill post it
    please stop...
    You gonnna make me snap the out of my keyboard becuz i thought it was you.
    dammit
    .
    Historians in EB know their history , you dont need to use such an dumbass tone and suggest silly stuff that you made up in wikipedia...
    please go away.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    John, EB is made by Historians who study history. Some even for a living. No offense but I think that they know their stuff better then you do.
    yah, ok. because historians love playing video games right? the eb team are probably very interested in history, but are by no means historians. and real historians do say that hoplites used phalanxes.
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    Default Re: hoplite phalanxes

    *headdesk*
    Look john, your interest is appreciated but not your tone, doubly so as you honestly don't actually know wtf you're talking about. As already explained - repeatedly - in the same thread in the EB1 forum, the shieldwall phalanx of the hoplites was a whole different beast from the pike-block of the Macedonian-style phalangites - and what the RTW "phalanx" special formation simulates is the latter.

    Put this way - hoplites charged. Hard. Phalangites didn't, AFAIK (the Medieval Swiss were the first pikemen to do that insofar as I'm aware of), and in any case any unit in the RTW "phalanx" special formation is patently incapable of doing so.

    See the difference ?

    The various changes the Spartan society went through out of sheer necessity (namely starting to run out of qualified Spartiates) bear no relevance to the matter.

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