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    kekesvar.bingos's Avatar Miles
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    Default Charter '08

    China's Charter 08

    The document below, signed by more than two thousand Chinese citizens, was conceived and written in conscious admiration of the founding of Charter 77 in Czechoslovakia, where, in January 1977, more than two hundred Czech and Slovak intellectuals formed a loose, informal, and open association of people...united by the will to strive individually and collectively for respect for human and civil rights in our country and throughout the world. The Chinese document calls not for ameliorative reform of the current political system but for an end to some of its essential features, including one-party rule, and their replacement with a system based on human rights and democracy.

    The prominent citizens who have signed the document are from both outside and inside the government, and include not only well-known dissidents and intellectuals, but also middle-level officials and rural leaders. They chose December 10, the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as the day on which to express their political ideas and to outline their vision of a constitutional, democratic China. They want Charter 08 to serve as a blueprint for fundamental political change in China in the years to come. The signers of the document will form an informal group, open-ended in size but united by a determination to promote democratization and protection of human rights in China and beyond.

    —Perry Link

    "Charter 08"


    Preamble

    This year is the 100th year of China’s Constitution, the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 30th anniversary of the birth of the Democracy Wall, and the 10th year since China signed the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights. After experiencing a prolonged period of human rights disasters and a tortuous struggle and resistance, the awakening Chinese citizens are increasingly and more clearly recognizing that freedom, equality, and human rights are universal common values shared by all humankind, and that democracy, a republic, and constitutionalism constitute the basic structural framework of modern governance. A “modernization” bereft of these universal values and this basic political framework is a disastrous process that deprives humans of their rights, corrodes human nature, and destroys human dignity. Where will China head in the 21st century? Continue a “modernization” under this kind of authoritarian rule? Or recognize universal values, assimilate into the mainstream civilization, and build a democratic political system? This is a major decision that cannot be avoided.

    The monumental historic transformation in the mid-19th century exposed the decay of the traditional Chinese despotic system and ushered in the most “unprecedented and cataclysmic change in several thousands of years” in all of China. The Self-strengthening Movement (c 1861-1894) sought the improvement of China’s technical capacity. The defeat in the first Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) once more exposed the anachronism of the political system. The Hundred Day Reform touched upon institutional innovations, but was a failure in the end because of the cruel suppression of the die-hard clique. On the surface, the Xinhai Revolution (1911) buried the imperial system that had lasted for more than 2,000 years and established Asia’s first republic. But, limited by the historical factors determined by internal trouble and external aggression, the republican political system lasted only for an instant, and despotism quickly returned.

    The failure of imitating mechanical innovation and institutional renewal prompted deep reflection among the people of the nation on the roots of this cultural sickness, which resulted in the “May 4” new culture movement under the banner of “science and democracy.” Because of frequent civil wars and invasions by external enemies, the course of China’s political democratization was forced to stop. The course of a constitutional government was initiated again after the victory in the War of Resistance against Japan (1937-1945), but the result of the civil war between the Kuomintang (the Nationalist Party) and the Communist Party caused China to sink into the abyss of the totalitarianism of the modern era. The “New China” established in 1949 is a “people’s republic” in name only. In fact, it is under the “Party’s dominion.” The ruling power monopolizes all the political, economic and social resources. It created a string of human rights catastrophes such as the Anti-Rightist Campaign, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, June 4, and attacks on non-governmental religious activities and on the rights defense movement, causing tens of millions of deaths, and exacted a disastrous price on the people and the country.

    The “reform and opening up” of the late 20th century extricated China from the pervasive poverty and absolute power in the Mao Zedong era, and substantially increased private wealth and the standard of living of the masses. Individual economic freedom and social privileges were partially restored, a civil society began to grow, and the calls for human rights and political freedom among the people increased by the day. Those in power, as they were implementing economic reforms aimed at marketization and privatization, also began to move from a position of rejecting human rights to one of gradually recognizing them. In 1997 and 1998, the Chinese government signed two important international human rights treaties. In 2004, the National People’s Congress amended the Constitution to include language to “respect and safeguard human rights.” And this year, [the government] has promised to formulate and implement a “National Human Rights Action Plan.” However, this political progress stops at the paper stage. There are laws but there is no rule of law. There is a constitution but no constitutional governance. And there is still the political reality that is obvious for all to see. The power bloc continues to insist on maintaining the authoritarian regime, rejecting political reform. This has caused corruption in officialdom, difficulty in establishing rule of law, and no protection of human rights, the loss of ethics, the polarization of society, warped economic development, damages in the natural and human environments, no systematic protection of the rights to property and the pursuit of happiness, the accumulation of countless social conflicts, and the continuous rise of resentment. In particular, the intensification of hostility between government officials and the ordinary people, and the dramatic rise of mass incidents, illustrate a catastrophic loss of control in the making, and the anachronism of the current system has reached a point where change must occur.

    II. Our Fundamental Concepts

    At this historical juncture of the future destiny of China, it is necessary to rethink the last 100 years of modernization and reaffirm the following concepts:

    Freedom: Freedom is at the core of universal values. The rights of speech, publication, belief, assembly, association, movement, and to demonstrate are all the concrete realizations of freedom. If freedom is not flourishing, then there is no modern civilization of which to speak.

    Human Rights: Human rights are not bestowed by the state, but are rights that each person is born with and enjoys. To ensure human rights must be the foundation of the first objective of government and lawful public authority, and is also the inherent demand of “putting people first.” The past political calamities of China are all closely related to the disregard of human rights by the ruling authorities.

    Equality: Each individual, regardless of social status, occupation, gender, economic situation, ethnic group, skin color, religion, or political belief, is equal in human dignity and freedom. The principle of equality before the law and a citizen’s society must be implemented; the principle of equality of economic, cultural, and political rights must be implemented.

    Republicanism: Republicanism is “governing together; living peacefully together,” that is, the decentralization of power and balancing of interests, that is comprised of diverse interests, different social groups, pluralistic culture and groups seeking religious belief, on the foundation of equal participation, peaceful competition, public discussion, and peaceful handling of public affairs.

    Democracy: The most basic meaning is that sovereignty resides in the people and the people elect government. Democracy has the following basic characteristics: (1) the legitimacy of government comes from the people, the source of government power is the people; (2) government must be chosen by the people; (3) citizens enjoy the right to vote, important civil servants and officials of all levels should be produced through elections at fixed times; (4) the decisions of the majority must be respected while protecting the basic rights of the minority. In a word, democracy will become the modern tool for making government one “from the people, by the people, and for the people.”

    Constitutionalism: Constitutionalism is the principle of protecting basic constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms and rights of citizens through law and a rule of law, delimiting the boundaries of government power and actions, and providing corresponding systemic capacity.

    In China, the era of imperial power has long passed and will not return; in the world, authoritarian systems are approaching the dusk of their endings. The only fundamental way out for China: citizens should become the true masters of the nation, throw off the consciousness of reliance on a wise ruler or honest and upright official, make widely public civic consciousness of the centrality of rights and the responsibility of participation, and practice freedom, democracy, and respect for law.

    III. Our basic standpoint

    In line with a responsible and constructive citizens’ spirit towards the country’s political system, civil rights and various aspects of social development, we put forward the following specific standpoints:
    Amend the Constitution: Based on the aforementioned values and concepts, amend the Constitution, abolishing the provisions in the current Constitution that are not in conformity with the principle that sovereignty resides in the people so that the Constitution can truly become a document for guaranteeing human rights and [appropriate use of] public power. The Constitution should be the implementable supreme law that any individual, group or party shall not violate, and lay the legal foundation for the democratization of China.

    Separation and balance of power: A modern government that separates, checks and keeps balance among powers guarantees the separation of legislative, judicial, and administrative power. The principle of governing by laws and being a responsible Government shall be established. Over-expansion of executive power shall be prevented; the Government shall be responsible to the taxpayers; the separation, checking and keeping balance of powers between the central and local governments shall be set up; the central power authority shall be clearly defined and mandated by the Constitution, and the local governments shall be fully autonomous.

    Democratize the lawmaking process: All levels of the legislative bodies shall be directly elected. Maintain the principles of fairness and justice in making law, and democratize the lawmaking process.

    Independence of the judiciary: The judiciary shall be nonpartisan, free from any interference. Ensure judicial independence, and guarantee judicial fairness. Establish a Constitutional Court and a system of judicial review; maintain the authority of the Constitution. Abolish as soon as possible the Party’s Committees of Political and Legislative affairs at all levels that seriously endanger the country’s rule of law. Avoid using public tools for private objectives.

    Public institutions should be used for the public: Realize the nationalization of the armed forces. The military shall be loyal to the Constitution and to the country. The political party organizations in the armed forces should be withdrawn. The level of military professionalism should be raised. All civil servants including the police shall remain politically neutral. Discrimination in employment of civil servants based on party preference should be eliminated and equal employment without any party preference should be adopted.

    Protect human rights: Protection of human rights should be effectively implemented and human dignity should be safeguarded. A Commission on Human Rights shall be established that is responsible to the highest level of authority representing public opinion. [This Commission] will prevent government abuse of public power and violation of human rights, and especially protect the personal freedom of citizens. All persons should be be free from unlawful arrest, detention, summons, interrogation, and punishment. The system of Reeducation-Through-Labor should be abolished.

    Election of public officials: The democratic electoral system should be fully implemented, with the realization of the equal voting right of one person one vote. Direct election of all levels of administrative heads should be institutionalized step by step. Free competition in the elections on a regular basis and citizen participation in the election of public officials are inalienable basic human rights.

    Urban and rural equality: The current urban-rural household registration system should be repealed. The equal rights for all citizens guaranteed by the Constitution should be implemented. The freedom of movement for citizens should be protected.

    Freedom of association: Citizens’ right to freedom of association shall be safeguarded. The current system for registration and examination before approval for civil society organizations should be changed to a registration and recording system. The ban on freely organizing political parties should be lifted. All activities of parties should be regulated by the Constitution and law. One-party monopolization of ruling privileges should be abolished. The principle of freedom of activities of political parties and fair competition should be established. The normalization of party politics and a rule by law should be realized.

    Freedom of assembly: Peaceful assembly, protest, demonstration and freedom of expression are fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution. They should not be subject to unlawful interference and unconstitutional restrictions by the ruling party and the government.

    Freedom of expression: The freedom of speech, freedom of the press and academic freedom should be implemented. Citizens’ right to know and to monitor supervise should be protected. A press and publication law should be promulgated. The ban on freely publishing newspapers should be lifted. The current provision of "inciting subversion of state power" in the Criminal Law should be repealed and criminal punishment for speech should be eliminated.

    Freedom of religion: Freedom of religion and freedom of belief should be protected. Religion and politics should be separated. Religious activities should be free from government interference. All administrative regulations, administrative rules and local regulations and rules that restrict or deprive citizens’ freedom of religion should be reviewed and repealed. Management of religious activities by administrative legislature should be prohibited. The current prior approval system in which religious groups (including places of worship) must be registered before obtaining legal status should be abolished, and instead, a new record-keeping system for religious groups and their worship places should replace the current one.

    Citizen Education: Abolish political education and examinations that are deeply ideological and serve one-party rule. Promote citizen education that encompasses universal values and civil rights, establishes civil consciousness, and promotes the civil virtue of serving society.

    Property Protection: Establish and protect private property rights, implement a free and open market economy, protect the freedom of entrepreneurship, and eliminate administrative monopoly; set up a state-owned property management committee that is responsible to the highest legislative agency, initiate property rights reforms legally and orderly, make clear the property rights of owners and obligors, initiate a new land movement, advance land privatization, and strictly protect citizens’, in particular, farmers’, land rights.

    Fiscal Reforms: Firmly establish democracy in finance and protect taxpayers’ rights. Build a public finance system and operational mechanisms in which powers and obligations are clear, and create a reasonable and effective division of power in finance among all levels of government; implement major reforms in the tax system to reduce the tax rate, simplify the tax system, and achieve tax equity. The administrative departments should not be allowed to increase tax or create new tax arbitrarily without a social public choice and resolutions of the legislative agencies. Pass reforms on property rights, introduce diverse market subjects and competition mechanisms, lower the market-entry threshold in banking, and create conditions for the development of privately-owned banking to energize the financial system.

    Social Security: Build a social security system that covers all of the citizens, and provide them with fundamental protections for education, medical care, elderly care and employment.

    Environmental Protection: Protect the ecological environment, promote sustainable development, and take up responsibility to future generations and humanity; enforce the respective responsibilities of the state and government officials of all levels; perform the function of participation and supervision by civil organizations on environmental protection.

    Federal Republic: Participate in and maintain regional peace and development with an equal and fair attitude, and create an image of a responsible great country. Protect the free systems of Hong Kong and Macao. Under the precondition of freedom and democracy, seek a settlement resolution on cross-strait relations by way of equal negotiation and cooperative interaction. Explore possible ways and an institutional design to promote the mutual prospects of all ethnicities with great wisdom, and to establish China’s federal republic under the structure of democracy and constitutionalism.

    Transitional Justice: Rehabilitate the reputation of and give state compensation to the victims who suffered political persecution during past political movements as well as their families; release all political prisoners, prisoners of conscience, and people who are convicted because of their beliefs; establish a truth commission to restore historical truth, to pursue accountability and to fulfill justice; seek a settlement of the society on this foundation.

    IV. Conclusion

    China, as a great nation of the world, one of the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, and a member of the Human Rights Council, should contribute to peace for humankind and progress in human rights. But to people’s regret, among the great nations of the world, China, alone, still clings to an authoritarian political way of life. As a result, it has caused an unbroken chain of human rights disasters and social crises, held back the development of the Chinese people, and hindered the progress of human civilization. This situation must change! The reform of political democratization can no longer be delayed.

    Because of this, we, with a civic spirit that dares to act, publish the “Charter 08.” We hope that all Chinese citizens who share this sense of crisis, responsibility and mission, without distinction between the government or the public, regardless of status, will hold back our differences to seek common ground, actively participate in this citizens’ movement, and jointly promote the great transformation of the Chinese society, so that we can establish a free, democratic and constitutional nation in the near future and fulfill the dreams that our people have pursued tirelessly for more than a hundred years.

    POSTSCRIPT

    The planning and drafting of Charter 08 began in the late spring of 2008, but Chinese authorities were apparently unaware of it or unconcerned by it until several days before it was announced on December 10. On December 6, Wen Kejian, a writer who signed the charter, was detained in the city of Hangzhou in eastern China and questioned for about an hour. Police told Wen that Charter 08 was "different" from earlier dissident statements, and "a fairly grave matter." They said there would be a coordinated investigation in all cities and provinces to "root out the organizers," and they advised Wen to remove his name from the charter. Wen declined, telling the authorities that he saw the charter as a fundamental turning point in history.

    Meanwhile, on December 8, in Shenzhen in the far south of China, police called on Zhao Dagong, a writer and signer of the charter, for a "chat." They told Zhao that the central authorities were concerned about the charter and asked if he was the organizer in the Shenzhen area.

    Later on December 8, at 11 PM in Beijing, about twenty police entered the home of Zhang Zuhua, one of the charter's main drafters. A few of the police took Zhang with them to the local police station while the rest stayed and, as Zhang's wife watched, searched the home and confiscated books, notebooks, Zhang's passport, all four of the family's computers, and all of their cash and credit cards. (Later Zhang learned that his family's bank accounts, including those of both his and his wife's parents, had been emptied.) Meanwhile, at the police station, Zhang was detained for twelve hours, where he was questioned in detail about Charter 08 and the group Chinese Human Rights Defenders in which he is active.

    It was also late on December 8 that another of the charter's signers, the literary critic and prominent dissident Liu Xiaobo, was taken away by police. His telephone in Beijing went unanswered, as did e-mail and Skype messages sent to him. As of the present writing, he's believed to be in police custody, although the details of his detention are not known.

    On the morning of December 9, Beijing lawyer Pu Zhiqiang was called in for a police "chat," and in the evening the physicist and philosopher Jiang Qisheng was called in as well. Both had signed the charter and were friends of the drafters. On December 10—the day the charter was formally announced—the Hangzhou police returned to the home of Wen Kejian, the writer they had questioned four days earlier. This time they were more threatening. They told Wen he would face severe punishment if he wrote about the charter or about Liu Xiaobo's detention. "Do you want three years in prison?" they asked. "Or four?"

    On December 11 the journalist Gao Yu and the writer Liu Di, both well-known in Beijing, were interrogated about their signing of the Charter. The rights lawyer, Teng Biao, was approached by the police but declined, on principle, to meet with them. On December 12 and 13 there were reports of interrogations in many provinces—Shaanxi, Hunan, Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong, and others—of people who had seen the charter on the Internet, found that they agreed with it, and signed. With these people the police focused on two questions: "How did you get involved?" and "What do you know about the drafters and organizers?"

    The Chinese authorities seem unaware of the irony of their actions. Their efforts to quash Charter 08 only serve to underscore China's failure to uphold the very principles that the charter advances. The charter calls for "free expression" but the regime says, by its actions, that it has once again denied such expression. The charter calls for freedom to form groups, but the nationwide police actions that have accompanied the charter's release have specifically aimed at blocking the formation of a group. The charter says "we should end the practice of viewing words as crimes," and the regime says (literally, to Wen Kejian) "we can send you to prison for these words." The charter calls for the rule of law and the regime sends police in the middle of the night to act outside the law; the charter says "police should serve as nonpartisans," and here the police are plainly partisan.

    Charter 08 is signed only by citizens of the People's Republic of China who are living inside China. But Chinese living outside China are signing a letter of strong support for the charter. The eminent historian Yu Ying-shih, the astrophysicist Fang Lizhi, writers Ha Jin and Zheng Yi, and more than 160 others have so far signed.

    On December 12, the Dalai Lama issued his own letter in support of the charter, writing that "a harmonious society can only come into being when there is trust among the people, freedom from fear, freedom of expression, rule of law, justice, and equality." He called on the Chinese government to release prisoners "who have been detained for exercising their freedom of expression."

    --translated by Perry Link

    Signed:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Yu Haocheng于浩成 (Beijing, Legal Scholar)
    Zhang Sizhi 张思之 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Mao Yushi茅于轼 (Beijing, Economist)
    Du Guang杜 光 (Beijing, Political Scientist)
    Li Pu李 普 (Beijing, Senior Journalist)
    Sha Yexin 沙叶新 (Shanghai, Playwright)
    Liu Shahe流沙河 (Sichuan, Poet)
    Wu Maohua 吴茂华 (Sichuan, Writer)
    Zhang Xianyang 张显扬 (Beijing, Ideologist)
    Sun Wenguang 孙文广 (Shandong, Professor)
    Bao Tong 鲍 彤 (Beijing, Citizen)
    Ding Ziling 丁子霖 (Beijing, Professor)
    Zhang Xianling 张先玲 (Beijing, Engineer)
    Xu Jue 徐 珏 (Beijing, Researcher)
    Jiang Peikun 蒋培坤 (Beijing, Professor)
    Liu Xiaobo 刘晓波 (Beijing, Writer)
    Zhang Zuhua 张祖桦 (Beijing, Constitutional Scholar)
    Gao Yu 高 瑜 (Beijing, Journalist)
    Dai Qing戴 晴 (Beijing, Writer)
    Jiang Qisheng 江棋生 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Ai Xiaoming 艾晓明 (Guangdong, Professor)
    Liu Junning 刘军宁 (Beijing, Political Scientist)
    Zhang Xukun 张旭昆 (Zhejiang, Professor)
    Xu Youyu 徐友渔 (Beijing, Philosopher)
    He Weifang 贺卫方 (Beijing, Legal Scholar)
    Mo Shaoping 莫少平 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Chen Ziming 陈子明 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Zhang Boshu 张博树 (Beijing, Political Scientist)
    Cui Weiping 崔卫平 (Beijing, Scholar)
    He Guanghu 何光沪 (Theologian)
    Hao Jian 郝 建 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Shen Minhua 沈敏骅 (Zhejiang, Professor)
    Li Datong 李大同 (Beijing, Journalist)
    Li Xianting 栗宪庭 (Beijing, Art Commentator)
    Zhang Ming 张 鸣 (Beijing, Professor)
    Yu Jie 余 杰 (Beijing, Writer)
    Yu Shicun余世存 (Beijing, Writer)
    Qin Geng 秦 耕 (Hainan, Writer)
    Zhou Duo 周 舵 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Pu Zhiqiang 浦志强 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Zhao Dagong 赵达功 (Shenzhen, Writer)
    Yao Lifa 姚立法 (Hubei, Election Expert)
    Feng Zhenghu 冯正虎 (Shanghai, Scholar)
    Zhou Qing 周 勍 (Beijing, Writer)
    Yang Hengjun 杨恒均 (Guangzhou [Guangdong], Writer)
    Teng Biao 滕 彪 (Beijing, Doctor of Law)
    Jiang Danwen 蒋亶文 (Shanghai, Writer)
    Woeser [Öser] 唯 色 (Tibet, Writer)
    Ma Bo 马 波 (Beijing, Writer)
    Cha Jianying 查建英 (Beijing, Writer)
    Hu Fayun 胡发云 (Hubei, Writer)
    Jiao Guobiao 焦国标 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Li Gongming 李公明 (Guangdong, Professor)
    Zhao Hui 赵 晖 (Beijing, Commentator)
    Li Boguang 李柏光 (Beijing, Doctor of Law)
    Fu Guoyong 傅国涌 (Zhejiang, Writer)
    Ma Shaofang 马少方 (Guangdong, Businessman)
    Zhang Hong 张 闳 (Shanghai, Professor)
    Xia Yeliang 夏业良 (Beijing, Economist)
    Ran Yunfei 冉云飞 (Sichuan, Scholar)
    Liao Yiwu 廖亦武 (Sichuan, Writer)
    Wang Yi 王 怡 (Sichuan, Scholar)
    Wang Xiaoyu王晓渔 (Shanghai, Scholar)
    Su Yuanzhen 苏元真 (Zhejiang, Professor)
    Jiang Jianzhong 强剑衷 (Nanjing [Jiangsu], Senior Journalist)
    Ouyang Xiaorong 欧阳小戎 (Yunnan, Poet)
    Liu Di 刘 荻 (Beijing, Freelance Worker)
    Zan Aizong 昝爱宗 (Zhejiang, Journalist)
    Zhou Hongling 周鸿陵 (Beijing, Social Activist)
    Feng Gang冯 刚 (Zhejiang Professor)
    Chen Lin 陈 林 (Guangzhou [Guangdong], Scholar)
    Yin Xian 尹 贤 (Gansu, Poet)
    Zhou Ming 周 明 (Zhejiang, Professor)
    Ling Cangzhou 凌沧洲 (Beijing, Journalist)
    Tie Liu 铁 流 (Beijing, Writer)
    Chen Fengxiao 陈奉孝 (Shandong, Former Rightist Student from Beijing University)
    Yao Bo 姚 博 (Beijing, Commentator)
    Zhang Jinjun 张津郡 (Guangdong, Manager)
    Li Jianhong 李剑虹 (Shanghai, Writer)
    Zhang Shanguang 张善光 (Hunan, Human Rights Defender)
    Li Deming 李德铭 (Hunan, Journalist)
    Liu Jianan 刘建安 (Hunan, Teacher)
    Wang Xiaoshan 王小山 (Beijing, Media Worker)
    Fan Yafeng 范亚峰 (Beijing, Doctor of Law)
    Zhou Mingchu 周明初 (Zhejiang, Professor)
    Liang Xiaoyan 梁晓燕 (Beijing, Environmental Volunteer)
    Xu Xiao 徐 晓 (Beijing, Writer)
    Chen Xi 陈 西 (Guizhou, Human Rights Defender)
    Zhao Cheng 赵 诚 (Shanxi, Scholar)
    Li Yuanlong 李元龙 (Guizhou, Freelance Writer)
    Shen Youlian 申有连 (Guizhou, Human Rights Defender)
    Jiang Suimin 蒋绥敏 (Beijing, Engineer)
    Lu Zhongming 陆中明 (Shaanxi, Scholar)
    Meng Huang 孟 煌 (Beijing, Artist)
    Lin Fuwu 林福武 (Fujian, Human Rights Defender)
    Liao Shuangyuan 廖双元 (Guizhou, Human Rights Defender)
    Lu Xuesong 卢雪松 (Jilin, Teacher)
    Guo Yushan 郭玉闪 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Chen Huanhui 陈焕辉 (Fujian, Human Rights Defender)
    Zhu Jiuhu朱久虎 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Jin Guanghong 金光鸿 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Gao Chaoqun 高超群 (Beijing, Editor)
    Bo Feng 柏 风 (Jilin, Poet)
    Zheng Xuguang 郑旭光 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Zeng Jinyan 曾金燕 (Beijing, Rights Activist)
    Wu Yuqin 吴玉琴 (Guizhou, Human Rights Defender)
    Du Yilong 杜义龙 (Shaanxi, Writer)
    Li Hai 李 海 (Beijing, Human Rights Defender)
    Zhang Hui 张 辉 (Shanxi, Democracy Activist)
    Jiang Shan 江 山 (Guangdong, Property Rights Activist)
    Xu Guoqing 徐国庆 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Wu Yu 吴 郁 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Zhang Mingzhen 张明珍 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Zeng Ning 曾 宁 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Quan Linzhi 全林志 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Ye Hang 叶 航 (Zhejiang, Professor)
    Ma Yunlong 马云龙 (Henan, Senior Journalist)
    Zhu Jianguo 朱健国 (Guangdong, Freelance Writer)
    Li Tie 李 铁 (Guangdong, Social Activist)
    Mo Jiangang 莫建刚 (Guizhou, Freelance Writer)
    Zhang Yaojie 张耀杰 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Wu Baojian 吴报建 (Zhejiang, Lawyer)
    Yang Guang 杨 光 (Guangxi, Scholar)
    Yu Meisun 俞梅荪 (Beijing, Legal Professional)
    Xing Jian 行 健 (Beijing, Legal Professional)
    Wang Guangze 王光泽 (Beijing, Social Activist)
    Chen Shaohua 陈绍华 (Guangdong, Designer)
    Liu Yiming 刘逸明 (Hubei, Freelance Writer)
    Wu Zuolai 吴祚来 (Beijing, Researcher)
    Gao Zhen 高 兟 (Shandong, Artist)
    Gao Qiang 高 强 (Shandong, Artist)
    Tang Jingling 唐荆陵 (Guangdong, Lawyer)
    Li Xiaolong 黎小龙 (Guangxi, Rights Activist)
    Jing Chu 荆 楚 (Guangxi, Freelance Writer)
    Li Biao 李 彪 (Anhui, Businessman)
    Guo Yan 郭 艳 (Guangdong, Lawyer)
    Yang Shiyuan杨世元 (Zhejiang, Retiree)
    Yang Kuanxing 杨宽兴 (Shandong, Writer)
    Li Jinfang 李金芳 (Hebei, Democracy Activist)
    Wang Yuwen 王玉文 (Guizhou, Poet)
    Yang Zhongyi杨中义 (Anhui, Worker)
    Wu Xinyuan 武辛源 (Hebei, Peasant)
    Du Heping 杜和平 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Feng Ling 冯 玲 (Hubei, Volunteer for Constitutional Politics)
    Zhang Xianzhong 张先忠 (Hubei, Entrepreneur)
    Cai Jingzhong 蔡敬忠 (Guangdong, Peasant)
    Wang Dianbin 王典斌 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Cai Jincai 蔡金才 (Guangdong, Peasant)
    Gao Aiguo 高爱国 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Chen Zhanyao 陈湛尧 (Guangdong, Peasant)
    He Wenkai 何文凯 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Wu Dangying 吴党英 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Zeng Qingbin 曾庆彬 (Guangdong, Worker)
    Mao Haixiu 毛海秀 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Zhuang Daohe 庄道鹤 (Hangzhou, Lawyer)
    Li Xiongbing 黎雄兵 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Li Renke 李任科 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Zuo Li 左 力 (Hebei, Lawyer)
    Dong Dezhu 董德筑 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Tao Yuping 陶玉平 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Wang Junxiu王俊秀 (Beijing, IT Professional)
    Huang Xiaomin 黄晓敏 (Sichuan, Rights Activist)
    Zheng Enchong 郑恩宠 (Shanghai, Legal Adviser)
    Zhang Junling 张君令 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Yang Hai 杨 海 (Shaanxi, Scholar)
    Ai Fulai 艾福荣 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Yang Huaren 杨华仁 (Hubei, Legal Professional)
    Wei Qin 魏 勤 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Su Zuxiang 苏祖祥 (Hubei, Teacher)
    Shen Yulian 沈玉莲 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Guan Hongshan 关洪山 (Hubei, Human Rights Defender)
    Song Xianke 宋先科 (Guangdong, Businessman)
    Wang Guoqiang 汪国强 (Hubei, Human Rights Defender)
    Chen Enjuan 陈恩娟 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Li Yong 李 勇 (Beijing, Media Worker)
    Chang Xiongfa 常雄发 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Wang Jinglong 王京龙 (Beijing, Management Scholar)
    Xu Zhengqing 许正清 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Gao Junsheng 高军生 (Shaanxi, Editor)
    Zheng Beibei 郑蓓蓓 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Wang Dinghua 王定华 (Hubei, Lawyer)
    Tan Lanying 谈兰英 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Fan Yanqiong 范燕琼 (Fujian, Human Rights Defender)
    Lin Hui 林 辉 (Zhejiang, Poet)
    Wu Huaying 吴华英 (Fujian, Human Rights Defender)
    Xue Zhenbiao 薛振标 (Zhejiang, Democracy Activist)
    Dong Guojing 董国菁 (Shanghai, Human Rights Defender)
    Chen Yufeng 陈玉峰 (Hubei, Legal Professional)
    Duan Ruofei 段若飞 (Shanghai, Human Rights Defender)
    Wang Zhongling 王中陵 (Shaanxi, Teacher)
    Dong Chunhua 董春华 (Shanghai, Human Rights Defender)
    Chen Xiuqin 陈修琴 (Shanghai, Human Rights Defender)
    Liu Zhengyou 刘正有 (Sichuan, Human Rights Defender)
    Ma Xiao 马 萧 (Beijing, Writer)
    Wan Yanhai 万延海 (Beijing, Public Health Expert)
    Shen Peilan 沈佩兰 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Ye Xiaogang 叶孝刚 (Zhejiang, Retired University Faculty Member)
    Zhang Jingsong张劲松 (Anhui, Worker)
    Zhang Jinfa 章锦发 (Zhejiang, Retiree)
    Wang Liqing 王丽卿 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Zhao Changqing 赵常青 (Shaanxi, Writer)
    Jin Yuehua 金月花 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Yu Zhangfa 余樟法 (Guangxi, Writer)
    Chen Qiyong 陈启勇 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Liu Xianbin 刘贤斌 (Sichuan, Democracy Activist)
    Ouyang Yi欧阳懿 (Sichuan, Human Rights Defender)
    Deng Huanwu 邓焕武 (Chongqing, Businessman)
    He Weihua 贺伟华 (Hunan, Democracy Activist)
    Li Dongzhuo 李东卓 (Hunan, IT Professional)
    Tian Yongde 田永德 (Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, Human Rights Defender)
    Zhi Xiaomin 智效民 (Shanxi, Scholar)
    Li Changyu李昌玉 (Shandong, Teacher)
    Guo Weidong 郭卫东 (Zhejiang, Office Worker)
    Chen Wei 陈 卫 (Sichuan, Democracy Activist)
    Wang Jinan王金安 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Cai Wenjun蔡文君 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Hou Shuming 侯述明 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Liu Hannan 刘汉南 (Hubei, Human Rights Defender)
    Shi Ruoping 史若平 (Shandong, Professor)
    Zhang Renxiang 张忍祥 (Hubei, Human Rights Defender)
    Ye Du野 渡 (Guangdong, Editor)
    Xia Gang 夏 刚 (Hubei, Human Rights Defender)
    Zhao Guoliang 赵国良 (Hunan, Democracy Activist)
    Li Zhiying 李智英 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Zhang Zhongfa 张重发 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Chen Yongmiao 陈永苗 (Beijing, Scholar)
    Jiang Ying 江 婴 (Tianjin, Poet)
    Tian Zuxiang 田祖湘 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Huang Zhijia 黄志佳 (Hubei, Civil Servant)
    Guan Yebo 关业波 (Hubei, Civil Servant)
    Wang Wangming王望明 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Gao Xinrui 高新瑞 (Hubei, Entrepreneur)
    Song Shuiquan 宋水泉 (Hubei, Legal Professional)
    Zhao Jingzhou 赵景洲 (Helongjiang, Human Rights Defender)
    Wen Kejian 温克坚 (Zhejiang, Scholar)
    Wei Wenying 魏文英 (Yunnan, Teacher)
    Chen Huijuan 陈惠娟 (Helongjiang, Human Rights Defender)
    Chen Yanxiong 陈炎雄 (Hubei, Teacher)
    Duan Chunfang 段春芳 (Shanghai, Human Rights Defender)
    Liu Zhengshan 刘正善 (Yunnan, Engineer)
    Guan Min 关 敏 (Hubei, University Teacher)
    Dai Yuanlong 戴元龙 (Fujian, Business Owner)
    Yu Yiwei 余以为 (Guangdong, Freelance Writer)
    Han Zurong 韩祖荣 (Fujian, Business Owner)
    Wang Dingliang 汪定亮 (Hubei, Lawyer)
    Chen Qinglin 陈青林 (Beijing, Human Rights Defender)
    Qian Shishun 钱世顺 (Guangdong, Business Owner)
    Zeng Boyan 曾伯炎 (Sichuan, Writer)
    Ma Yalian 马亚莲 (Shanghai, Human Rights Defender)
    Che Hongnian 车宏年 (Shandong, Freelance Writer)
    Qin Zhigang 秦志刚 (Shandong, Electronic Engineer)
    Song Xiangfeng 宋翔峰 (Hubei, Teacher)
    Deng Fuhua 邓复华 (Hubei, Writer)
    Xu Kang 徐 康 (Hubei, Civil Servant)
    Li Jianqiang 李建强 (Shandong, Lawyer)
    Li Renbing 李仁兵 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Qiu Meili 裘美丽 (Shanghai, Rights Activist)
    Lan Zhixue 兰志学 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Zhou Jinchang 周锦昌 (Zhejiang, Retiree)
    Huang Yanming 黄燕明 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Liu Wei 刘 巍 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Yan Liehan 鄢烈汉 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Chen Defu 陈德富 (Guizhou, Democracy Activist)
    Guo Yongxin 郭用新 (Hubei, Doctor)
    Guo Yongfeng 郭永丰 (Guangdong, Founder of the Association of Chinese Citizens for Monitoring the Government [中国公民监政会])
    Yuan Xinting 袁新亭 (Guangzhou [Guangdong], Editor)
    Qi Huimin 戚惠民 (Zhejiang, Democracy Activist)
    Li Yu 李 宇 (Sichuan, Journalist)
    Xie Fulin 谢福林 (Hunan, Human Rights Defender)
    Xu Guang 徐 光 (Zhejiang, Business Owner)
    Ye Huo 野 火 (Guangdong, Freelance Writer)
    Zou Wei 邹 巍 (Zhejiang, Rights Activist)
    Xiao Libin 萧利彬 (Zhejiang, Engineer)
    Gao Haibing 高海兵 (Zhejiang, Democracy Activist)
    Tian Qizhuang 田奇庄 (Hebei, Writer)
    Deng Taiqing 邓太清 (Shanxi, Democracy Activist)
    Pei Hongxin 裴鸿信 (Hebei, Teacher)
    Xu Min 徐 民 (Jilin, Legal Professional)
    Li Xige李喜阁 (Henan, Rights Activist)
    Wang Debang 王德邦 (Beijing, Writer)
    Feng Qiusheng 冯秋盛 (Guangdong, Peasant)
    Hou Wenbao 侯文豹 (Anhui, Rights Activist)
    Tang Jitian 唐吉田 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Liu Rongchao 刘荣超 (Anhui, Peasant)
    Li Tianxiang 李天翔 (Henan, Worker)
    Cui Yuzhen 崔玉振 (Hebei, Lawyer)
    Xu Maolian 许茂连 (Anhui, Peasant)
    Zhai Linhua 翟林华 (Anhui, Teacher)
    Tao Xiaoxia 陶晓霞 (Anhui, Peasant)
    Zhang Wang 张 望 (Fujian, Worker)
    Huang Dachuan 黄大川 (Liaoning, Office Worker)
    Chen Xiaoyuan 陈啸原 (Hainan, Office Worker)
    Zhang Jiankang 张鉴康 (Shaanxi, Legal Professional)
    Zhang Xingshui 张星水 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Ma Gangquan 马纲权 (Beijing, Lawyer)
    Wang Jinxiang 王金祥 (Hubei, Rights Activist)
    Wang Jiaying 王家英 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Yan Laiyun 鄢来云 (Hubei, Business Owner)
    Li Xiaoming 李小明 (Hubei, Rights Activist)
    Xiao Shuixiang 肖水祥 (Hubei, Rights Activist)
    Yan Yuxiang 鄢裕祥 (Hubei, Rights Activist)
    Liu Yi 刘 毅 (Beijing, Artist)
    Zhang Zhengxiang 张正祥 (Yunnan, Environmental Activist)


    Let us symbolically join this petition for freedom in China (to show, that we care):

    Jakub Smolka (Czech Republic, Student)
    Last edited by kekesvar.bingos; January 12, 2009 at 02:10 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Charter '08

    Got a chuckle out of me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Charter '08

    Update:

    Liu Xiaobo was sentenced to 11 years for "inciting subversion of state power".

    "As with convicted pedophiles and serial murderers there is concern for Liu's safety in the general prison population" said a senior Chinese official. His freedom and equality rhetoric could lead to violent acts of "street justice" or even his death. "For his safety he will serve the duration of his term in segregation." When asked if rehabilitation is a possibility for Liu the official stated he was "cautiously optimistic".

  4. #4
    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Update:

    Liu Xiaobo was sentenced to 11 years for "inciting subversion of state power".

    "As with convicted pedophiles and serial murderers there is concern for Liu's safety in the general prison population" said a senior Chinese official. His freedom and equality rhetoric could lead to violent acts of "street justice" or even his death. "For his safety he will serve the duration of his term in segregation." When asked if rehabilitation is a possibility for Liu the official stated he was "cautiously optimistic".
    The man got a 2 hour trial. It was an utter sham.; a show trial in every sense of the word. The 2000 citizens who signed this Charter are brave souls, but I fear for the safety of them and their families.
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

  5. #5
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Update:

    Liu Xiaobo was sentenced to 11 years for "inciting subversion of state power".

    "As with convicted pedophiles and serial murderers there is concern for Liu's safety in the general prison population" said a senior Chinese official. His freedom and equality rhetoric could lead to violent acts of "street justice" or even his death. "For his safety he will serve the duration of his term in segregation." When asked if rehabilitation is a possibility for Liu the official stated he was "cautiously optimistic".
    Sounds to me like they don't want him spreading his ideas amongst the people that got the raw end of government power.

  6. #6
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Good luck and all, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Charter '08

    Two thousand? In a country of 1.something billion? Call me a vehement cynic, but for something like this to work, it would need at least 50 million signatures. They need strength in numbers, so that the secret police won't be able to arrest them all.

    Anyway, there's a slowly rising tide of discontent among a rather sizable amount of the Chinese population. The simple fact is, that since Tienanmen, civil rights in China haven't really progressed. They have actually regressed in certain areas.

  8. #8
    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke View Post
    Anyway, there's a slowly rising tide of discontent among a rather sizable amount of the Chinese population. The simple fact is, that since Tienanmen, civil rights in China haven't really progressed. They have actually regressed in certain areas.
    Only when the economy looks like its in trouble. Other than that, they really don't care too much as long as they're able to make money. Its a case of 'it isn't happening to me, so no need to worry'.

    After Tian'anmen, the Chinese people pretty much made an unofficial pact with the Government: "As long as you keep ensuring we have economic prosperity, we'll not bother you about political rights or advancement."
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg View Post
    After Tian'anmen, the Chinese people pretty much made an unofficial pact with the Government: "As long as you keep ensuring we have economic prosperity, we'll not bother you about political rights or advancement."
    Allow me a Radio Erevan style "clarification":

    Correct, but it wasn't the Chinese people who demanded, it was imposed by the Government. Secondly, they didn't "make" anything, the idea of 'market Leninism' is a pretty old one, existing in many Warsaw Pact countries since the early '70s. Lastly, it wasn't a "pact", but rather one of those 'special' combos of threats mixed with promises the Bolsheviks are oh-so-good at brewing.

  10. #10
    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke View Post
    Allow me a Radio Erevan style "clarification":

    Correct, but it wasn't the Chinese people who demanded, it was imposed by the Government. Secondly, they didn't "make" anything, the idea of 'market Leninism' is a pretty old one, existing in many Warsaw Pact countries since the early '70s. Lastly, it wasn't a "pact", but rather one of those 'special' combos of threats mixed with promises the Bolsheviks are oh-so-good at brewing.
    However you want to define it - that's what happened. And, for the most part, the people here are content with the way things are. Yes, there are those who want more and are willing to speak out against it. But for the most part, even if they want more, they are happy to go along with the status quo.

    This 'underlying feeling of discontent' that people talk about in Chinese society... if its there, you don't feel it when you're out on the streets. It must be very underground...
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Charter '08

    Just restricted to all the localities that experience riots every year I suppose. Evidently there is no underlying dissatisfaction with anything - for whole postcodes to spontaneously erupt in street violence is a perfectly common occurrence in all countries.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Charter '08

    I suspect then that the government will decide to dissolve the population, and elect another.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Charter '08

    It's the thought that counts

  14. #14

    Default Re: Charter '08

    I'm looking forward to televised show trials.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  15. #15
    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    All I see is a big list of names for the Chinese Government to target.

    Poor, brave fools

  16. #16
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    stupid idiots,
    what do they think signing a measly petition will affect? they're putting themselves and their families at risk;
    this is not how you go about making changes in China; ing retards

  17. #17

    Default Re: Charter '08

    'I assume you are referring to Xinjiang and Xizang'

    No I'm actually talking about Han people rioting and burning down government buildings for reasons unrelated to ethnic tension, something that happens far more frequently than can reasonably be explained if we are to assume that the country is stable and everyone is happy, even if it doesn't get much attention in the mass media. According to the Ministry of Public Security's own statistics there were 87,000 'public order disturbances' in 2005. From time to time it also issues vague information on specific incidents and shifts between expressions like 'mass incidents', 'mass incidents requiring a police response' and 'public order disturbances'. It also no longer issues statistics and hasn't reported a decline in this sort of thing for a number of years now. That should tell you that the situation isn't getting any better and the Ministry doesn't know how to handle it in an honest way vis-a-vis the public. If this is some kind of a surprise, it shouldn't be. It is well acknowledged by the most seniour government and Party officials that the country has serious problems with uneven development, social inequality and dislocation, and of course corruption and abuse of power by officials and Party members more or less from the level of province down. In fact that's just quoting a paragraph from the first few minutes of Hu Jin Tao's Work Report at 17th Party Congress.
    Last edited by Furious Mental; December 28, 2009 at 05:18 AM.

  18. #18
    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Furious Mental View Post
    'I assume you are referring to Xinjiang and Xizang'

    No I'm actually talking about Han people rioting and burning down government buildings for reasons unrelated to ethnic tension, something that happens far more frequently than can reasonably be explained if we are to assume that the country is stable and everyone is happy, even if it doesn't get much attention in the mass media. According to the Ministry of Public Security's own statistics there were 87,000 'public order disturbances' in 2005. From time to time it also issues vague information on specific incidents and shifts between expressions like 'mass incidents', 'mass incidents requiring a police response' and 'public order disturbances'. It also no longer issues statistics and hasn't reported a decline in this sort of thing for a number of years now. That should tell you that the situation isn't getting any better and the Ministry doesn't know how to handle it in an honest way vis-a-vis the public. If this is some kind of a surprise, it shouldn't be. It is well acknowledged by the most seniour government and Party officials that the country has serious problems with uneven development, social inequality and dislocation, and of course corruption and abuse of power by officials and Party members more or less from the level of province down.
    No disagreement with any of that. And last year during the height of the financial crisis, there was a fear of a migrant worker uprising due to massive unemployment. However, I disagree with the assessment that China is near the tipping point. A lot of people are afraid that if things keep going the way they are, there will be a future crisis.

    There are increasing calls for improvement in Government transparency and the dealing of corruption. Things the Government, like you've already said, has promised to tackle. How successful they'll be is yet to be seen.

    However, I disagree with the assessment that there is a universal, underlying feeling of resentment throughout Chinese society. I believe that the increasing influence and power of the ever-growing middle class will bring about the most significant change.

    Out of curiosity, what's your experience with China?
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

  19. #19
    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    A good opinion piece on the subject. I agree pretty much with his assessment of the situation.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-do..._b_403766.html

    Have a good one fellow TWC-ers.
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

  20. #20
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Charter '08

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg View Post
    A good opinion piece on the subject. I agree pretty much with his assessment of the situation.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-do..._b_403766.html

    Have a good one fellow TWC-ers.
    excellent article

    especially the point about the difference in cultural values between chinese society and western society;
    something i find disturbing amongst a lot of western commentators is the almost arrogant perpective that they expect china to westernize more and adopt western values with the rather neo-colonial attitude of 19th century opium smugglers/imperialists.

    i think there are some rather salient features which we should jsut accept; one being that china will never westernize to the degree which we'll all be satisfied with-this doesnt mean they're going to be a threat-it just means they do things differently in that part of the world.

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