Was 'Leningrad' the greatest heroism of WW2?

**Applesmack** · January 10, 2009, 02:34 PM

World War 2 is full of heroes and amazing events. In your opinion, which was the most heroic events of World War 2. IMO, it is easily the Soviet herorism during the seige of Leningrad.

Seige of Leningrad:

It was horrific. The siege of Leningrad (the modern-day St. Petersburg) lasted almost two and one-half years and cost the lives of an estimated 1,000,000 city residents. It began on September 8, 1941 when German troops completed their encirclement of the city. As his blitzkrieg rushed towards Moscow, Hitler made the strategic decision to bypass Leningrad and strangle the city into submission rather than commit valuable resources to attacking it directly.

Hunger and cold became the city's greatest enemies. By the end of September, the city's oil and coal supplies were exhausted. This meant that the city was without any central heating. As the brutal Russian winter approached, water pipes froze and broke, denying the residents drinking water.

Food supplies were cut. By November, individual rations were lowered to 1/3 of the daily amount needed by an adult. The city's population of dogs, cats, horses, rats and crows disappeared as they became the main course on many dinner tables. Reports of cannibalism began to appear. Thousands died. The death rate reached 5000 per day. The frozen earth meant their bodies could not be buried. Corpses accumulated in the city's streets, parks and other open areas.

Food can only be brought in from the "Road of Life", where brave Leningraders had to cross over Lake Ladoga to prevent the whole population from starving to death. The frozen road was often attacked by the Germans, destroying whole transports of food and other materials. Worse, the ice was quite thin and many people often broke right through it on their to or out of Leningrad.

Despite such hardships, the Soviet residents in Leningrad refused to surrender and many of them refused to leave during the early evacuations, preffering to stay and fight to the death in defence of the city. Factories were kept running as long as possible, turning out equipment for the city's defenders. From July to December 1941, the factories turned over 1, 100 tanks and and combat vehicles, 10, 000 mortars and 3 million shells. In further amazement, the starving and tired people of Leningrad managed to produce 1000 guns and mortars for the defence of Moscow on top of the production for the defence of Leningrad itself. The guns were flown out of the city over the German lines and made it to fight in Moscow. All resources were used to produce combat equipment before most factories were shut down because of lack of supplies.

The city was earned the title "Hero City" and remains one of the biggest landmarks of Soviet defiance against Nazi Germany.

Sources: Russia's War

**Farnan** · January 10, 2009, 02:38 PM

Naa....

It was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. They knew they were dead before it started, yet they fought anyways (and lasted longer than France).

And besides the Jewish fighters, there were the Polish Underground fighters who voluntarily joined the Jewish fighters in their fight to the death.

**Applesmack** · January 10, 2009, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Farnan

They knew they were dead before it started, yet they fought anyways (and lasted longer than France).

That's not true at all:

When the deportations first began, members of the Jewish resistance movement met and decided not to fight the SS directives, believing that the Jews were being sent to labour camps and not to their deaths. By the end of 1942 however, it became known to Ghetto inhabitants that the deportations were part of an extermination process. Many of the remaining Jews decided to resist.[13]

It was simply a desperate attempt to escape and stop the deportations since they kenw they would die either way. They believed it was completely possible to escape. Although I deeply disagree that this even compares to Leningrad, I guess it is your opinion.

**Farnan** · January 10, 2009, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :)

That's not true at all:

When the deportations first began, members of the Jewish resistance movement met and decided not to fight the SS directives, believing that the Jews were being sent to labour camps and not to their deaths. By the end of 1942 however, it became known to Ghetto inhabitants that the deportations were part of an extermination process. Many of the remaining Jews decided to resist.[13]

It was simply an attempt to escape and stop the deportations. They believed it was completely possible. Although I deeply disagree that this even compares to Leningrad, I gues it is your opinion.

The Uprising didn't start till 1943, so they knew they were dead and started the fight. And even if they didn't know deportation meant death it increases their bravery as every member of the resistance signed their own death warrant.

And for non-combat examples, I place the Righteous among Nations - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteo...ng_the_Nations People who risked their lives to save innocents.

**Applesmack** · January 10, 2009, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Farnan

The Uprising didn't start till 1943, so they knew they were dead and started the fight. And even if they didn't know deportation meant death it increases their bravery as every member of the resistance signed their own death warrant.

So did my post go to deaf ears? They only began resisting in any serious ammount when they knew that they were being sent to death camps. It was nothing more than a desperate attempt to save themselves, as Hell correctly said. It is either die in a gas chamber, or waste some German supplies and maybe even escape. I am actually slightly offended that you used such a bad example and said it was a more heroic achievement than Leningrad. There are COUNTLESS better examples out there that show great heroism than this.

Originally Posted by Farnan

And for non-combat examples, I place the Righteous among Nations - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteo...ng_the_Nations People who risked their lives to save innocents.

For non-combat, I guess I agree.

**Farnan** · January 10, 2009, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :)

So did my post go to deaf ears? They only began resisting in any serious ammount when they knew that they were being sent to death camps. It was nothing more than a desperate attempt to save themselves, as Hell correctly said. It is either die in a gas chamber, or waste some German supplies and maybe even escape.

However the courage of civilians to stand and fight against battle hardened Germans and last so long is amazing. And their goal wasn't too escape, but to encourage a general Jewish Uprising and to show the world that they could fight.

Not disagreeing with the heroism of St. Petersberg, I watched a show on it when I was little and I remember being amazed and cheering on the defense (not knowing they won till the show was over), I just was more amazed by the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

**hellheaven1987** · January 10, 2009, 02:44 PM

Na, those Jewish fighters knew they were also dead if they did not fight; it was more a desperate attempt to save themselves.

**pannonian** · January 10, 2009, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Farnan

Naa....

It was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. They knew they were dead before it started, yet they fought anyways (and lasted longer than France).

And besides the Jewish fighters, there were the Polish Underground fighters who voluntarily joined the Jewish fighters in their fight to the death.

Have you seen the film Kanal?

**Carl von Döbeln** · January 10, 2009, 02:53 PM

Raoul wallenberg's actions

**Hookah Smoking Caterpiller** · January 10, 2009, 04:04 PM

TF will you accept that the USSR during WWII was not the best at everything?

**Applesmack** · January 10, 2009, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Modern Life is Rubbish

TF will you accept that the USSR during WWII was not the best at everything?

When did I say they were? They were definately not the best at everything (such as Naval Power and strategic bombers)..Happy? But they sure had by far the most significant contribution to defeat of Nazi Germany and their war effort was full of heroism.

**Guderian's Duck** · January 10, 2009, 04:59 PM

Finland, without a doubt.

**Hookah Smoking Caterpiller** · January 10, 2009, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :)

When did I say they were? They were definately not the best at everything (such as Naval Power and strategic bombers)..Happy? But they sure had by far the most significant contribution to defeat of Nazi Germany and their war effort was full of heroism.

You have tried to argue that the Warsaw Uprising was not heroic.

**Applesmack** · January 10, 2009, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Modern Life is Rubbish

You have tried to argue that the Warsaw Uprising was not heroic.

Not at all, for it is heroic. But comparing it to Leningrad is almost insulting. Anyone can see the difference between them.

**Hookah Smoking Caterpiller** · January 11, 2009, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :)

Not at all, for it is heroic. But comparing it to Leningrad is almost insulting. Anyone can see the difference between them.

**Azog 150** · January 11, 2009, 10:01 AM

All I can say is I am glad my family escaped from Petrograd (As Leningrad was known back in 1917) with my Nan (Who was only a few months old) back in 1917.

If they had stayed, she would have been in for some serious hardship, and there is a good chance I wouldn't be sitting here right now.

This thread is stupid though.

It shouldn't be called the Greatest Heroisms of World War 2- how can you possibly judge that?

If you were going to make a thread about the Heroism during World War 2, then you should have called it 'Heroic events of WW2' or something. But really every serving man and woman in the war was heroic, and this seems like another one of you 'Russians are the best, we were the most heroic and best fighters of WW2' threads.

Operation Chariot

I only found out about this a few months ago. I read some of the Commandos letters to their families before the mission. Pretty upsetting. I also read some of the German soldiers accounts of the mission- even though the Commandos had killed many of their Comrades, they all praised the Commandos bravery and recklessness in the face of death. As you pointed out numerous times, the best thing about it is how up for it the Commandos were. They knew they were facing death or god-knows how many years in a POW camp, but they did it regardless.

The Commandos also invented the assault course training for this mission, and most of the infantry thought they were crazy. You also forgot to mention that aside from the dry docks that we destroyed, we had planted one of our ships full of explosives. While there were hundreds of Germans on board after the crew were killed, the thing detonated.

**Spartacus the Irish** · January 11, 2009, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Azog 150

The Commandos also invented the assault course training for this mission, and most of the infantry thought they were crazy.

Most of the Command did too. The raid was supposed to be helped by a diversionary bombing raid by the RAF - initially supposed to be hundreds strong, it was reduced to a mere 35. Low-cloud cover, and wish to reduce civilian losses meant the resulting raid was desultory at best, and actually alerted the German garrison rather than distracting them.

You also forgot to mention that aside from the dry docks that we destroyed, we had planted one of our ships full of explosives. While there were hundreds of Germans on board after the crew were killed, the thing detonated.

That wasn't particularly pertaining to the 'heroic' aspect. It wasn't an aim to blow it up with German soldiers and French civilians on it, that was the fault of the temperamental pencil detonators.

Why are we trying to compare heroism? Why not just have a thread honouring those events each poster considers heroic? Although I have to admit, I am getting pretty bored with TF making everything a competition.

Now, I believe that Operation Chariot was perhaps the best example of British heroism in the war, but I wouldn't presume to

all over someone else's post because it didn't correspond to mine. The definition of heroism is a very personal thing, to each his own.

**gaius valerius** · January 12, 2009, 07:42 AM

Funny... So basically this thread is about which ppl took a bullet in the head, chest, etc, got heir guts torn out, arms ripped off, legs shredded to pieces in... a more valorous way???

Did I say funny? No wait, I meant SICK...

**Garrigan** · January 10, 2009, 05:07 PM

It was nice that Stalin felt the need to reward some of the leaders of the Soviet Resistance in Leningrad. Didnt he feel they had acted "too independately" and shot some of the leaders?

Something which I think is quite courageous was the actions of the Polish under Anders at Monte Casino. Fighting in the hope that they would gain a free and independant Poland at the end of the war. Sad that not only did they not get that, but also that they were excluded from the British Victory parade in london.

**Ishoss** · January 10, 2009, 05:44 PM

1st. Finland.
2nd. The Heavy-Water saboteurs... If they hadn't sabotaged Rjukan, Germany might've created a nuke and we all might've been speaking German by now. (Or be horrible mutated humans as a by-effect of Nuclear winter...)

Plus, someone made a Hollywood movie 'bout them