Modern China

[Watchman]

You sarcasm detector needs a change of batteries, Ex. I think you doth protest too much.

Nonetheless, when after ten minutes outside you're sneezing black gunk into your handkerchief and can on a brisk winter day take a foto directly of the sun without the film saturating you know you're not in Kansas anymore. (Not that I've ever been there, but...)

Among the city names I can remember from the initerary were Beijing, Xian and Luouyang - there was more, but don't expect me to remember them after several years. Aside from the cars and industry, a potential culprit we pegged when walking around the cities were the stacks of coal brickets people hauled home presumably for heating...

So, yeah.

[Exarch]

You sarcasm detector needs a change of batteries, Ex. I think you doth protest too much.

Nonetheless, when after ten minutes outside you're sneezing black gunk into your handkerchief and can on a brisk winter day take a foto directly of the sun without the film saturating you know you're not in Kansas anymore. (Not that I've ever been there, but...)

Among the city names I can remember from the initerary were Beijing, Xian and Luouyang - there was more, but don't expect me to remember them after several years. Aside from the cars and industry, a potential culprit we pegged when walking around the cities were the stacks of coal brickets people hauled home presumably for heating...

So, yeah.

several years ago, today; a lot changes given the pace of development in china. have u been back to beijing recently?
and in any case, so what? do u assume that a superpower will automatically be transferring its own lifestyle to your own? pollution isnt a lifestyle, and it's the world's problem actually.

for eg, here in oz, heck, here in the southern hemisphere, we dont have nearly as much industry as the northern hemisphere yet we suffer from the growing hole in the ozone layer above the antarctic because of the convection currents bringing down pollution from industry of the northern hemisphere to the southern pole

[Watchman]

Naw. But I'll just say that based on what I saw not that long ago "wit me own three eyes", they sure have their job cut out for them.

Also, in the case of Beijing methinks it's pretty safe to assume a major facelift for the Olympics and Devil take the expenses... doesn't mean much had necessarily changed in how things are generally done.

[Exarch]

Naw. But I'll just say that based on what I saw not that long ago "wit me own three eyes", they sure have their job cut out for them.

Also, in the case of Beijing methinks it's pretty safe to assume a major facelift for the Olympics and Devil take the expenses... doesn't mean much had necessarily changed in how things are generally done.

every government on the face of the earth knows the impact pollution has and has taken steps towards correcting it, and given the public awareness for it in china, the Hu jintao administration has taken steps towards it. something the jiang zemin administration never really considered in its pursuit for economic growth.
the chinese (under the Hu admin.) know that economic growth is only sustainable with a good environment, and have thus taken stps towards it.
for a developing country like china to get the olympics becomes a win win situation as it pours investment into local infrastructure-> locals win, and tourism-> locals and buzinesses win and free advertisement.

oh i'm pretty sure beijing'll do what needs to be done to ensure the people are well fed, healthy and happy-hence the recent investment in developing infrastructure. i'd bet their lives on it

we'll be seeing a completely different china 20 yrs from now.

[Watchman]

Personally I suspect we may also be seeing a collapsed China twenty years from now, but I'm cynical that way. Also skeptical about the spotty old men in Beijing being actually that much more capable and willing of thinking ahead rather than in terms of short-term profit and staying in power come what may than such totalitarian regimes in general have been.

Oh, I'm willing to bet there's no shortage of enlightened folks conscious of the gravity of the situation in the top brass; that doesn't mean their concerns can actually override the entrenched "class interests" of their peers...

[Exarch]

Personally I suspect we may also be seeing a collapsed China twenty years from now, but I'm cynical that way. Also skeptical about the spotty old men in Beijing being actually that much more capable and willing of thinking ahead rather than in terms of short-term profit and staying in power come what may than such totalitarian regimes in general have been.

Oh, I'm willing to bet there's no shortage of enlightened folks conscious of the gravity of the situation in the top brass; that doesn't mean their concerns can actually override the entrenched "class interests" of their peers...

i remember the very same ppl predicting that 'china will collapse very very soon' waay back in 95 and 96.
it's debatable whether or not a democracy would work for china; there're alreayd elections on the village level, but could it work on the federal level?
the last time china was a democracy it encountered little help from the western democracies (when sun yat sen requested assistance, it was turned down and only stalinist russia offered to help...for a price) and complications involving a loittle incident in manchuria and nanjing...well insofar as the average chinese citizen can see, why fix something that aint broke?

[jimkatalanos]

Moved some posts here from the VV...

[Chukada1]

I like China.

It's doing much better then it was in the 80's and 90's.

Which means Watchman is wrong and Exarch is right.

I win.

[Siblesz]

China is doing well NOW. Wait ten-twenty years. But it's not only about China... I include Europe and America too. The coming energy crisis is much, much more serious than most people realize. Anyhow, watchman's points concentrate on semantics... I disagree with them. It's not about ideology. The collapse will come about strictly from logistics, the breakup of globalization with rising fuel prices, and civil unrest resulting from the coming collapse of the international trade network. It's a coming global collapse... and it's not China's fault that it will happen... direct fault, at least.

[Exarch]

China is doing well NOW. Wait ten-twenty years. But it's not only about China... I include Europe and America too. The coming energy crisis is much, much more serious than most people realize. Anyhow, watchman's points concentrate on semantics... I disagree with them. It's not about ideology. The collapse will come about strictly from logistics, the breakup of globalization with rising fuel prices, and civil unrest resulting from the coming collapse of the international trade network. It's a coming global collapse... and it's not China's fault that it will happen... direct fault, at least.

interesting sibs
care to elaborate on this coming energy crisis?
i thought we had oil for another 80+/- yrs or so

[ray243]

Which is why China is RUSHING to develop its economy ASAP.

From an economic viewpoint, those human rights supporters should shut the hell up with their arguments that denying China and its people economic prosperity is a good thing, to let them have democracy.


Denying anyone economic prosperity is the SAME as denying them human rights.

[Emperor Taizu]

Which is why China is RUSHING to develop its economy ASAP.

From an economic viewpoint, those human rights supporters should shut the hell up with their arguments that denying China and its people economic prosperity is a good thing, to let them have democracy.


Denying anyone economic prosperity is the SAME as denying them human rights.

I couldn't agree more ray. Human rights is just blah blah blah made up by some liberty extremists in my opinion. Economic prosperity is much more important for the people of China for now, and "human rights" can come later as it is not important. Besides, China is already slowly loosening up its hold on the citizens. We Chinese believe in doing things one step at a time.

[Watchman]

From an economic viewpoint, those human rights supporters should shut the hell up with their arguments that denying China and its people economic prosperity is a good thing, to let them have democracy.

Denying anyone economic prosperity is the SAME as denying them human rights.

'Scuse me, but since when exactly were democracy and human rights mutually incompatible with prosperity...?

...it doesnt help having westerners wanting bloody revolution with all the facets of a free tibet campaign.

What, like who where when ? The last I heard the Dalai Lama himself had been all for peaceful resistance, anyway.

[Exarch]

What, like who where when ? The last I heard the Dalai Lama himself had been all for peaceful resistance, anyway.

meaning people who only knew about tibet because of richard 'i love gerbils' gere or hollywood making sweeping cartoonish generlisations about the region-they're not helping the tibet issue.

'Scuse me, but since when exactly were democracy and human rights mutually incompatible with prosperity...?

economic prosperity leads to democracy and such rights as freedom of speech. look at how modern democracy in england and america came about after a history of existence and living standards.
or for a modern example look at india; of what use is democracy and the right of political speech when they're too busy begging off the street or trying to feed themselves and their failies?

when people arent too busy trying to feed themselves and their families, then and only then will you get your political reform.

[Chukada1]

Chinese people don't need to eat.

They don't need the basic neccesities of life in order to function like other people. I mean. As a Canadian, I care about democracy. Therefore I should hold these Chinese (in a developing country) at the same standards as a Canadian (in a first world country). I should ignore history and not draw any parallels. It's only fair that we hold the standard for China higher then we would hold the standard for a 22nd century America.

Am I right? Am I right?

[Emperor Taizu]

Chinese people don't need to eat.

They don't need the basic neccesities of life in order to function like other people. I mean. As a Canadian, I care about democracy. Therefore I should hold these Chinese (in a developing country) at the same standards as a Canadian (in a first world country). I should ignore history and not draw any parallels. It's only fair that we hold the standard for China higher then we would hold the standard for a 22nd century America.

Am I right? Am I right?

I hope that's sarcasm as the Chinese people need to eat and have the basic necessities of life to live just as anyone else needs them. I know it seems like we Chinese are immortal, but sadly we aren't.

[roy34543]

I only think the pollution in their rivers is going to bite them in the ass someday.

[Furious Mental]

It's well and good saying democracy can wait for economic development, but wait until when? Wait until the economy collapses and the party apparatchiks put all the money in a Swiss bank account and leave? Waiting until you get fed up with whoever is in charge to demand individual rights and popular empowerment, by definition, is waiting until it's too late.

'i thought we had oil for another 80+/- yrs or so '

How much is that oil going to cost in about eight decades?

[Exarch]

It's well and good saying democracy can wait for economic development, but wait until when? Wait until the economy collapses and the party apparatchiks put all the money in a Swiss bank account and leave? Waiting until you get fed up with whoever is in charge to demand individual rights and popular empowerment, by definition, is waiting until it's too late.

'i thought we had oil for another 80+/- yrs or so '

How much is that oil going to cost in about eight decades?

i take a very post structuralist view towards world governments; in other words, i choose not to judge and thik eveyr system has its merits and defeats.
for eg, i doubt the concept of a nation state and america flavour democracy is necessarily appropriate for say amazonian tribespeople, but that's an extreme example.

Here in the industrialised affluent west, i know of noone whose ever starved to death before, or had to literally support their whole family; when you're not worrying about how to feed yourself and your family, how to clothe them and pay for meds, thinking about such things as democracy is a luxury. it should be noted that in some democracies, such as USA, relatively few people exercise their right to vote. in Australia we're forced to vote, even if we're politically apathetic.

for people like ray and taizu who are chinese, they speak from a perspective that's fed up with patronising westerners telling them that their country has a 'human rights problem' with all the moral hypocrisy that could ever be brought to bear.
but i'm digressing, sorry.

@sibs
there're so many alternatives to oil/gas
nucleah for eg and solar
i hear they've made wonderful advances in tech

[Furious Mental]

That's dodging the point. Sooner or later the population will get fed up with the regime and want change. It has nothing to do West vs East or capitalism vs socialism - this happens to every country eventually. However, countries which are plural and democratic and accustomed to periodic changes of the guard handle it much better than countries where the ruling party is entrenched and believes in something bordering on divine right. Zimbabwe, for one, used to be considered the most promising country in Africa.