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  1. #1
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    I agree with this op-ed piece. Special elections should be by the people and not one man with one vote.

    IN 2009 four new senators will slip into office — all in violation of the Constitution, which requires a special election to fill a Senate vacancy. Colorado, Delaware, hapless Illinois and star-struck New York will have senators “elected” by a single voter, the governors who appoint them.
    It may have been a while since many of us read the 17th Amendment, which was ratified in 1913...
    continued:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ... Its first paragraph replaced the indirect election of senators by state legislatures with “direct” popular election by the voters. The second paragraph, which you may have skipped in school, deals with vacancies. It states that when seats open up unexpectedly, governors “shall issue writs of elections to fill such vacancies.” The plain enough meaning is that the governor will issue an order for a special election. But for decades now governors have opted not to issue writs directing new or special elections. Why are they ignoring the Constitution? To increase their own power, of course.

    The pretext being used is a legal “proviso” in the amendment that comes later in the second paragraph. It states: “Provided, that the legislature of any state may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.”

    A proviso, one learns in law school, is to be interpreted strictly, and certainly should not cancel out the clause it modifies. In this case, that clause states in plain English that the governor must issue a writ of election. Rather than excusing the immediate issuance of a writ, the proviso simply allows the governor to make a temporary appointment until there is a special election at such time and place that the legislature determines. For example, if the legislature decided that it would take 120 days to hold a special election, it would seem perfectly proper for the governor to send a temporary appointee to vote on a pending budget bill or major treaty.

    Yet the current practice in virtually every state flips the proviso to override the main clause. Governors don’t issue a writ or start the machinery for a special election as the amendment requires, but instead fill the post for up to two years, until the next general election. This frustrates the whole democratic thrust of the amendment.

    While this has been happening for decades, the corrupt nature of the practice has finally become too obvious to ignore in Illinois, now that the United States attorney has a court order to have the governor bugged. Yes, the F.B.I. complaint against Gov. Rod Blagojevich paints him as especially corrupt. But the fact is that a certain amount of political horse-trading is inherent if officials, rather than voters, fill Congressional vacancies.

    This is why the writers of the 17th Amendment required special elections. It is also why governors and legislators have always been eager to stop these elections. They resented having to give up the old system, in which they picked the senators. As Governor Blagojevich allegedly said on tape of his opportunity to fill Barack Obama’s seat, this “thing” is “golden.”
    Defenders of the current system insist that the case of Valenti v. Rockefeller decided once and for all that governors can lawfully skip special elections. In the case, the plaintiffs had sought to require Gov. Nelson Rockefeller of New York to hold a vote in November 1968 (as part of that year’s general election) to fill the Senate vacancy created by the murder of Robert F. Kennedy. The governor instead appointed Charles Goodell to fill the term until the next regular election in 1970, on the ground that there could not be the necessary primary election before the November 1968 vote.

    The suit was taken up by a federal three-judge panel; two judges held that it was a “reasonable exercise of discretion” for a New York state law to give the governor such power. The third, the widely respected Marvin Frankel, argued that the second clause of the 17th Amendment required special elections as soon as possible. But the matter hardly rests there, as the Supreme Court eventually ducked the question. In 1969 it issued a “per curiam” summary affirmance of the panel’s decision — meaning that while it didn’t overturn the judgment, it issued no opinion in favor of it. Such an affirmance is typically not treated as a strong precedent.


    source: NY Times
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
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  2. #2
    Boer's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    As a Coloradan, I was annoyed when I was told who my new Senator was going to be. If I'm paying the guy to represent me, shouldn't I get a voice in electing him? I've never understood why/how governors are allowed to simply choose a new Senator. I wonder how much effort it would take to get the Supreme Court to weigh in on these appointments?

  3. #3

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    I think this Constitutional interperetation is wrong.

    A "special" election is held in these cases because senators have 6 year terms. Most states just choose to have these special senatorial elections during normal House elections because it adds no cost to the tax payer, it is just another name on the ballot. If they waited for the entire term of the senator to end then it may be unconstitutional, but as it is now, the two year wait is still a "special" election. Special election is not defined anywhere in the constitution or the 17 amendment so 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 year, whatever, it is still special as long as it is before the normal 6 years.

    Politically, the best appointments are considered those of family members or spouses of the senator. They are expected to carry on the policies of the person the people voted for. Otherwise, you are supposed to appoint someone with simular views as the outgoing senator, and typically the same gender/race/political party.
    Last edited by Sphere; January 07, 2009 at 09:25 AM.

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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    As a Brit, i'm surprised that Senator's are simply replaced without election, seems very undemocratic. Considering on our side of the Atlantic, if an MP (Member of Parliament) resigns or dies, even if it's the day after he's elected, there's a bi-election, and people vote a new one in. I'd assume a US Senator was subject to the same thing. Though, an MPs constituency typically has around 20k or so constituents that vote.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    As a Brit, i'm surprised that Senator's are simply replaced without election, seems very undemocratic. Considering on our side of the Atlantic, if an MP (Member of Parliament) resigns or dies, even if it's the day after he's elected, there's a bi-election, and people vote a new one in. I'd assume a US Senator was subject to the same thing. Though, an MPs constituency typically has around 20k or so constituents that vote.
    US Representatives are more like MP's, they have snap elections to fill vacancies because the constituancies are small. Senator slots are state wide elections, so take Illinois for example, a population of 13 million, it is a major deal to have a full election. Or in the extreme California with 37 million, which amounts to the same size as many European nationwide elections. All so that an appointee doesn't sit in a Senate seat two years at the very longest. (Again elected senators serve 6 year terms, appointees serve two or less)

    (And Brits don't even elect their upper house, so they are trully the pot calling the kettle black)
    Last edited by Sphere; January 07, 2009 at 12:13 PM.

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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Senator slots are state wide elections, so take Illinois for example, a population of 13 million, it is a major deal to have a full election.
    That aside, it does seem a little unjust? Also, arn't their multiple Senators from certain states, as I thought there was more than 50 or so Senators. Wouldn't that mean a States votes are divided?

    (And Brits don't even elect their upper house, so they are trully the pot calling the kettle black)
    The House of Lord's doesn't serve a huge purpose though. If the House of Commons backs a bill, the Lords refuse, and it then goes through the Commons again, it can bypass the Lords (I can't remember if it has to go through several times, but if theres enough backing in the Commons for it, there is a way to get it through). The Lords just makes sure nothing completely daft can come through, not to invent laws, so to me, it doesn't matter that they're elected or not. Point is, the only thing you almost ever hear of the Lords is when a dubious law passes through the Commons marginally only to fail at the Lords (42 day detention for example), or when those honours are "sold off" by the parties for "donations" or "loans". The Commons is FAR more important. Heck, our Head of State barely does anything.

    If the Senate acts in the same way, please tell me, in which case I don't see it mattering as much, but i'm under the impression that the Senate is the main place where Laws are decided (other than the President vetoing everything in sight he's unhappy with), not Congress. Any American bill we hear about over here, only ever mentions the Senate, not Congress/House of Representatives or whatever the lower house(s) are called. The Senate just seems to me far more prominent in your system than the Lords our in ours.
    Last edited by Musthavename; January 07, 2009 at 12:54 PM.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    That aside, it does seem a little unjust?
    In general it makes more sense actually. A snap statewide election costs millions of dollars and usually has something like 30% turnout. And it forgoes the usually primaries and debates, so there can be dozens of candidates running. The winning candidate might get 15% or less of the electorate and win. It was this type of election that put Arnold the Governator into office. And once elected in this manner they get to serve out the rest of the term (up to six years).

    Most states have decided to allow a 2 year or less appointee to hold the seat so that the special election can be held during a normal House cycle, and the traditional primaries and debates can be held, and the election gets a decent turnout. Although the states can change their mind.

    Illinois actually recently decided agaisnt a snap special election even with the whole Blagoyavich scandle, thats how large the drawbacks are.

    Also, arn't their multiple Senators from certain states, as I thought there was more than 50 or so Senators
    2 Senators from each of the fifty states, so 100 total. Both get elected statewide, but the terms are staggered so you never vote for more than one senator at a time.

    but i'm under the impression that the Senate is the main place where Laws are decided
    The House Of Representatives (aka, The House, Congress) originates most Bills, and all spending bills, but is done by majority vote like the commons. In this way the Speaker of the House (semi-PM) can ram through legislation if they have a majority, and generally get very dirty to make it happen. Thus few bills get held up in the House.

    The Senate rules make it less political. Generally 60 votes are needed to get a Bill through the process (which is why there is all the fuss over the democrates getting 59 seats and not 60). Also the Senate Majority Leader is expected to be less political and less dirty in getting his party in line. Thus bills can easily get stalled or shot down.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Does it really matter? These appointments are only for the rest of the term, right? The picks would still have to win a reelection, right?

    I assume, using Senate rules etc, that these people could be effectively isolated and prevented from messing something up. <--- I'm making an assumption

    Besides, it'd seem like elections would never work. Who'd run? How long would the candidates get to campaign? Wouldn't it favor wealthy people more?

    Also, when was the last time something like this happened? My bad, when was the last time something like this was caught on tape...

    Don't change the whole system because of one/a few idiots.
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    pffft when was the last time america cared about the constitution? not anytime in the last 8 years....
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  10. #10

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Special elections should be by the people and not one man with one vote.
    Totally agree, that no governor should be allowed to fill vacancies...but resources wasted on holding a special election can be pretty significant.

    Every elected official should designate a "contingency" person to fill his/her shoes in the event of their accepting an alternate office, post-election. Obviously, the back-up needs to be put front and center during the election so the public knows who they might really be voting for. We can call em "vice-senators"...and say little about their vices...
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post
    Totally agree, that no governor should be allowed to fill vacancies...but resources wasted on holding a special election can be pretty significant.

    Every elected official should designate a "contingency" person to fill his/her shoes in the event of their accepting an alternate office, post-election. Obviously, the back-up needs to be put front and center during the election so the public knows who they might really be voting for. We can call em "vice-senators"...and say little about their vices...
    And by extension of your argument the resources wasted on all elections could be considered even more significant.

    To compicate an election process with a "vice" for every slot is unigue but not workable. The person must be ready and willing to serve and not oterwise occupied with life in the private sector. This would never work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















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  12. #12

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    And by extension of your argument the resources wasted on all elections could be considered even more significant.

    To compicate an election process with a "vice" for every slot is unigue but not workable. The person must be ready and willing to serve and not oterwise occupied with life in the private sector. This would never work.
    Those resources you and I deem "wasted" on elections are the bread and butter for a number of industries: advertising, media, pollsters, etc. At least it's remaining within the national economy! Equating the value of primary elections to special elections is unreasonable. The first is necessary to democracy, the second is just an unconventional means of pushing party agendas.

    The "vice" should not accept his position if he were not willing to accept the consequences. He must realize that his position is contingent upon his sponsor's chances of winning. He could even be treated like a member of a jury pool, in that his private work would compensate the time spent campaigning (if even necessary). Even when his sponsor loses, the experience would be a great plug for his resume.

    Besides, somebody's got to fill the vacancy...doesn't that "person must be ready and willing to serve and not oterwise occupied with life in the private sector."...as well?

    We KNEWthat either McCain or Obama would leave an open seat. Why is it so unreasonable to expect them to make the statement:

    "In the event that I win the presidential election, Coolio McSweeneyTodd will fill my vacant senate seat. You will find that in his 10 years of experience as a state representative in Arizona/Illinois, he has maintained positions very much in line with my personal philosophy, and with my guidance and support he would make an excellent substitute."

    ...at least then, we'd know what to expect and as an added bonus the media will have yet another target to scrutinize!
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Here is a question, what if a Senator dies or resigns for health reasons and the governor of the state is from the other party?

    This can actually happen as Senator Alen Spector of PA has cancer and the governor of PA is a Democrat.
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Snce this thread is triggered by among other US Senate seats -- Colorado and New York due to appointments to cabinet positions -- a simpler system needs to be in place. 120 day period with a 30 day to file is sufficient to runs a special election. There may be other even more local elections to fill also. It is not a complicated special election ballot. My complaint is the logic that a statewide special election is somehow more expensive that a congressional seat election? Why? If a state has 7 congressional seats, why should citizens be cut out of the process on the merit of more cost than a congressional seat to be filled? Are we talking about the cost per vote -- then there is no effective difference in cost. If it is the cost in aggregate, then why bother to have elections? The logic is simply not consistent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  15. #15

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    If a candidate's substitute is already listed on the ballot, the voter may take that into consideration while deciding. No special election needed.

    I'm less concerned with cost than I am the skewed turnout numbers you see during special elections. Damn flakey democrats, I wish I didn't have to vote with them so often...
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post
    If a candidate's substitute is already listed on the ballot, the voter may take that into consideration while deciding. No special election needed.

    I'm less concerned with cost than I am the skewed turnout numbers you see during special elections. Damn flakey democrats, I wish I didn't have to vote with them so often...
    No reasonable politician wants to tie his future to another person's name on a ballot. Look at the controversity behind a vp candidate for the national election. Do you really think a US Senator or Conngressman wants to do so also? What about the local town council or mayor? Can the alternates be sereving as an elected official? See any logical problems with such a daisy chain of events?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  17. #17

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    No reasonable politician wants to tie his future to another person's name on a ballot.
    Please explain campaign endorsements...

    Successful politicking demands private alliances, promises, support, and deals, both real and potentially unrealized. Becoming a "backup" alternative would be just another form of political capital.
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

    IDIOT BASTARD SON of MAVERICK

  18. #18
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    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post
    Please explain campaign endorsements...

    Successful politicking demands private alliances, promises, support, and deals, both real and potentially unrealized. Becoming a "backup" alternative would be just another form of political capital.
    If I endorse Joe Conservative for an office -- that is my decision. Joe Conservative did not tie me to his campaign, I did the endorsement on my own. I fail to see the relationship between endorsements and naming a replacement by the candidate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  19. #19

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    I should clarify:

    Mr. Candidate contacts Mr. Potential Replacement before the election: "Hey, how would you like to take my old office in the event that I accept another gig next month?"

    If NO, Mr. Candidate keeps looking and avoids any embarassment.

    If YES, Mr. Candidate gives a press release and we're that much better informed about the post-election scenarios. Mr. Potential Replacement can do with his newfound popularity as he wills (or, as commanded...). A resourceful politician would work the angles to their advantage...Palin...cough, cough...

    No special election hassles, no Governor appointment scandals, less public uncertainty, more meat for the media machine. I don't see reluctance on Mr. Backup's part to "bind his future" as a problem. There's plenty more politicians to choose from, and I'm sure that an exemplary candidate would attract lots of good options. Look at how Richardson abandoned Clinton, burning bridges just for the chance at a position in Obama's ascendancy. Almost worked!
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

    IDIOT BASTARD SON of MAVERICK

  20. #20

    Default Re: A Job Too Big for One Man to Fill -- Electing US Senators

    Are we talking about the cost per vote -- then there is no effective difference in cost. If it is the cost in aggregate, then why bother to have elections? The logic is simply not consistent.
    The difference is that most elections have over a dozen things you vote on as local/state/federal/ballot measures all coincide on the two year cycle. You only have to pay poll workers and other public servants for one day and you get quite a few things voted on. If you are only voting on one seat, and the turnout is pitifully low, you aren't getting much democracy for your buck.

    Anyways, the state legislature can always revoke the governors power and hold a special election. Illinois recently declined to do that and thats how Burris got in.

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