Noob question: What are skirmisher cavalry good for?

[Bull]

I am a long time BC player who's now playing SS6.1(+CBUR+RR+RC...you know the combo), the last SS played was 4.1 (I think) and I have a big question about these skirmisher cavalries.

They have such a short range and are few in numbers (60-80 on huge), that they do get quite shot up by infantry archers (even the militia ones). These don't seem any more powerful (no AP, damage is marginally higher) at the expense of range, and frankly it's harder to do horse-archer warfare with them. The only use I find for them is to chase and shoot down routers (I like to kill most of my enemies, then capture the last living guy just to release him for my global rep ).

So my question is: are they meant to represent historically accurate portrayal of horse archers firing at close range? or are they just the result of HA nerfing?

[thehuscarl48]

They're good for harrassing large stacks as they invade your lands. Think Armenians in RTW. And javelin cavalry are excellent for skirting lines and whacking generals.

[Angrychris]

Depends also on time period.

[Henry707]

Hello,

I am a new convert to horsy archers so there are many more experts here but key is making the most of them is to use them correctly. They are a specific tool, not a hammer.

So, sure they will not win often or easily against foot archers however, if you come across an army with little missile protection & few light horse, you can do some real damage with these guys.

Playing as the Mongols, I'm sure the others are the same, it is well worth having 4-6 units in your stack, they flank the enemy army & just start a withering fire into the back & sides which steadily reduces most enemy units, particularly milita to mince meat.

Henri

[Gnostiko]

And javelin cavalry are excellent for skirting lines and whacking generals.

Seconded; when javelin cavalry get behind the enemy's lines, close enough to say 'hi' to the lagging enemy general...it's party time.

As for bow-and-arrow skirmisher cavalry, they're useful in disrupting enemy formations. Units always peel off to engage them, meaning the enemy reaches your lines piecemeal.

[thehuscarl48]

Seconded; when javelin cavalry get behind the enemy's lines, close enough to say 'hi' to the lagging enemy general...it's party time.

As for bow-and-arrow skirmisher cavalry, they're useful in disrupting enemy formations. Units always peel off to engage them, meaning the enemy reaches your lines piecemeal.

I remember once playing as Byzies, i had maybe 6 byz cav and 2 turkomans and 2 akinjis. I staughtered nearly an entire stack of venetian infantry. (not the heavy mind you) Place your general as far to the rear of the map as possible, and rush your cav to meet the enemy, some in front and some following on either flank. If they dont break or die by the time they reach your gen., retreat and repeat.

[Byg]

My usual battle tactic is for my main infantry based army to hold a hill. It is almost always the case that I can get the advantage of as hill position. The skirmishing cavalry is sent to the approaching army's right to provide continuous fire into the enemy's unshielded right side. As the two armies collide the cavalry skirmishers will now fold behind the enemy to continue firing and kill any routers. They might even risk the odd charge into the rear if the enemy waver.

[delra]

Byg: I thought (I think you wrote it to me a long while back) in M2TW it doesn't matter at which side (shielded (left) or unshielded (right)) you're firing?

[Slaists]

My usual battle tactic is for my main infantry based army to hold a hill. It is almost always the case that I can get the advantage of as hill position. The skirmishing cavalry is sent to the approaching army's right to provide continuous fire into the enemy's unshielded right side. As the two armies collide the cavalry skirmishers will now fold behind the enemy to continue firing and kill any routers. They might even risk the odd charge into the rear if the enemy waver.

yeah, well... this is made possible by the "AI fix" that one of the first MTW II patches introduced. now, the AI will attack even if they're defending... it makes it way easier for the player to win the 'attacking' battles, allowing the 'attacking' player to pick the high ground and just wait for the 'defending' AI to attack...

i know, usually, the defending AI attacks if it 'thinks' the player has more missiles. in my opinion, a stupid solution to the 'passive AI problem' (present in out-of-the-box MTW II). even the MTW I defending AI knew how to pick good ground (cover, etc.) and hold it...

[lordextra0]

I have to totally agry with henry707
I tried this with pretty much every horse archer ingame and made exactly those experiences
especially with skirmisher HA you need to be carefull to go around the enemy in a wide circle and
then come in from behind so that they can't react and you are already sending pointy sticks into
the enemy before they react

[Gogolometro]

Jinites my friend.You never experienced Spain in campaign?

[Don in the North]

i only use javelin mounts when facing elephants, but those are hard to come by.
for horse archers, what i like to do is get a stack of about 8, take them to a battlefield and split them into groups of 2, and with each of the 4 groups i have ill have each sit on a different side, with at least one flanking around the back for max damage. as long as you micromanage them (dont just leave em on skirmish, gotta constantly maintain awareness on each of them, using skirmish only when i know the enemy cant run them down and i have to look at otherside of the battle etc) you can inflict very heavy losses on the enemy before you run out of ammo.
most HA have a special ability to run in a circle, i find this very useful for absorbing enemy archer fire, so often when the enemy has ranged units ill have one unit or one group at the front doing that circle stuff while in loose formation, theyll take losses but not as many as standing still.
for light and fast enemy horses, ill draw them out into open as far as i can then have all groups converge and defeat that light horse unit, then rinse and repeat untill the threat is at least marginallised then ill continue harassing enemy.
the only real problem i ever experience with HA is running out of ammo, if this happens i just do what damage i can then retreat, but if i absolutely have to defeat the enemy army, ill let infantry chase one unit as bait (alternate its speed between run and walk so you stay like 15mtrs ahead of enemy unit, just so they dont lose interest) then with one of my out of ammo units or the 2nd unit in one of the split up groups, ill flank from behind, give them a charge, then call in the initial 'bait' unit to charge the enemy unit again while the flankers get to safety, then rinse and repeat untill that unit routs.

with unarmored HA this is often a heavy casualty tactic but it can be worth it. even if you dont destroy that enemy stack i guarantee youll reduce stack to at least 70%

[Henry707]

As a former heavy European unit sort of guy, it does take a bit of courage to see half your units riding off in a wide arc as mentioned above but it is the right tactic.

Once they come back in & start firing those arrows, the hoardes marching towards you will falter....just takes a bit of confidence as loads of infantry march towards your thinned lines! :hmmm:

Henri

[delra]

It really annoys enemy when your javelin cavalry gets behind his heavy infantry or heavy cavalry and starts killing man after man after man like they were cheap militia.

And annoying your enemy is something you should consider your main objective before you beat him. (I remember the quote about Napoleon, some Prussian general said about him something like (rough translation) "This Frenchman annoys me so much, he defends when he's supposed to attack, he attacks when he's supposed to defend. It's impossible to fight against guys like that.")

[Angrychris]

they are the end of the sword, not the tip. they finish. unless you send them to redirect heavy calv or elephants away from the battle.

[TheLastPrivate]

"Skirmisher Cavalry" have armour-breaking bows (not AP, just higher velocity) that can mow down enemy heavy armoured troops if positioned correctly.

A typical mongol battle vs. a typical european stack would work like this:

1. Send mounted Heavy Archers (missile) to engage enemy missiles. Missile Cavalry are inaccurate but long-ranged, with makes them ideal for engaging first.
2. Once enemy missiles are thinned, send in skirmisher cavalry to attack enemy heavy cavalry.
3. The enemy will either a) attack heavy archers with missile troops, leaving your skirmishers safe
or b) attack skirmishers, which will take some dmg but since they've been thinned out not as much.
Besides, that will also take fire off your heavy archers.
4. By the time enemy army reaches your lines of spears and nafftuns, enemy cavalry should be decimated. If they decide to chase your skirmishers, thats just as well since that will draw the cavalry away from the battle itself.
5. Light lancers should try to prod and charge enemy artillery/archers while your missiles are ordered to whither down enemy melee (to avoid friendly fire & thin ranks)
6. Whatever reaches your lines should be quickly routed by nafftuns (2 units is enough).
7. Keep heavy cavalry (2~4) to engage any enemy heavy cavalry that survived the missiles, or to simply charge enemy infantry.

Skirmisher cavalry need missile cavalry support to be fully effective, due to their weakness to missiles. But if supported well and micromanaged correctly, they will tear up the enemy armour.

However, they are not too effective against full-plates or gothic plates.

[Bobsters34]

I usually have my skirmisher cavalry "sneak" around to the back of the enemy. Then usually 2-3 units follow them and the skirmishers will take them out while moving. Very useful

[Bull]

Wow, thanks guys for the wonderful tips.
By the way, never knew that missile velocity impacted on armour penetration. Thought it was just AP property and damage count....

[AnthoniusII]

My Acritae (byz javeling horsemen)saved a castle of mine in a seige when they forced the infantry which maned the seige tower to brake their ranks!