Welsh Unit Names e.t.c

[Desperado †]

Don't know if you got somebody who can do this already. Anyway, this looks like a good mod, and I am fluent in Welsh and ready to lend a bit of my time to give good, correct, Welsh names (or translations if you've made some allready) for units. Some of the CA Unit names for Wales in Kingdoms are really foolish, such as Teulu (familly) for the Best Horsemen.

[wilddog]

@Caradog - Thanks for the offer there. Yes if you've got any translated names that would be helpful. At the moment like the English I'm basically just calling them along the lines of what they are armed with. eg long spear, axe etc I also need to distinguish between the town v castle units. Any suggestions on better names more than welcome.

[King of History]

i know its wrong forum but what happened to u in gstk caradog?

[wilddog]

Some of the CA Unit names for Wales in Kingdoms are really foolish, such as Teulu (familly) for the Best Horsemen.

I remembered this post and just wanted to ask why you throught Teulu (effectively a retainer) was a foolish name?

Its a term thats used fairly frequently in Welsh Poetry from what I've read (I don't speak welsh though)

eg

Pob teulu, teiwng oedd iddaw
Pob cedwyr, cedwynt adanaw

which was a given a translation of

All retainers were true to his trust,
All warriors were his defenders

[Gorrrrrn]

I'm not a welsh speaker but have read something on welsh social structure in this period.

If my sources are correct then the chief of a extended family would have his blood relatives around him.
This would be the Teulu.
They don't really constitute much by way of a unit description.

Daniel Mersey suggests Teulu would have been a formidable military unit, equivalent of feudal knights.
http://www.castlewales.com/warfare.html

One wonders where a Teulu of 160 heavily armed horsemen would have come from, given the decentralised and rural nature of welsh society at this time, with little cash
(tribute was in food,not money.) They would have to have been an aggregation of the smaller Teulu of local chiefs grouped together under a king perhaps?

(There's always the possibility that the number of feudal knights might have been increased sometimes by anglo-norman rebels?)

If that's the case one would need to keep numbers of such units restricted. Bulk of armies seem to have consisted of spearmen and archers.

[wilddog]

Rozanov - I agree the numbers would be restricted and unit sizes ahve been set accordingly.

I've been reading up on some of the military "organisation" as well but haven't finished the books yet (another thing I'm behind on) - they tend to me a little hard going at times with cross references to sources.

[Kamakai]

Im Welsh. Just wanted to say that because im proud to be!

[wilddog]

Im Welsh. Just wanted to say that because im proud to be!

and so you should be. They are historically represented in the game including where possible the settlements.

Naming will be in English though. I don't know Welsh but I know enough about the history of the area through different historical books etc (and I don't mean the fairly useless Osprey book on the subject).

If we do a submod it will definitely me a Marches set one, but on a slightly earlier time frame.

[Kamakai]

Naming will be in English though.

So all the names will be English names?

[Hresvelgr]

and so you should be. They are historically represented in the game including where possible the settlements.

Naming will be in English though. I don't know Welsh but I know enough about the history of the area through different historical books etc (and I don't mean the fairly useless Osprey book on the subject).

If we do a submod it will definitely me a Marches set one, but on a slightly earlier time frame.

I'm expecting what is supposedly a good book about the Welsh, especially their armies, of the era in a week so I might be able to help with research a bit if you need it. And I got that Scottish and Welsh Wars Osprey book too, what a useless piece of crap, lol. Seriously though, that book sucked ass and was the worst Osprey book I've ever read. It was even hilariously incorrect at parts, even claiming Edward I marched to Scotland with 100,000 men and that all the Welsh were tribal barbarians.

[wilddog]

I'm expecting what is supposedly a good book about the Welsh, especially their armies, of the era

Curious which book that is? I may have it. Though there isn't a lot of detail around as far as I know.

[Hresvelgr]

Curious which book that is? I may have it. Though there isn't a lot of detail around as far as I know.

Welsh military institutions, 633-1283
By Sean Davies

Supposed to be about how Wales was not as barbaric back then like a lot of people including Osprey say. Got it because it was the only thing I could find on the subject really. Got a good review on Amazon. Not in great supply however and I may have ordered the last one in stock on Amazon.

[wilddog]

Welsh military institutions, 633-1283
By Sean Davies

Supposed to be about how Wales was not as barbaric back then like a lot of people including Osprey say. Got it because it was the only thing I could find on the subject really. Got a good review on Amazon. Not in great supply however and I may have ordered the last one in stock on Amazon.

I thought it was going to be that one. I bought a copy last year. Its actually very orientated on the early medieval ages with a lot of references to that period rather than the later period though it does have chapters dedicated to the Teulu and Llu and gives a few more names taken from various sources. Its also got a few decent maps one of which I really liked .

[Hresvelgr]

Well, at least it's better than anything else I could find. Can't be half as bad as that Osprey book either. Anyways, I was just looking through your progress thread seconds ago, and I really think you need to make a new preview thread to compile that stuff. I didn't know you guys created most of what you had in there! They were the most beautiful units I've seen in a mod, and I especially liked how you even have distinct Welsh units! You really should just make it easier for people new to this mod to look at that stuff, it is too amazing to hide in one thread.

Shame though that you don't have enough room for Deheubarth or Powys though, but then again they really didn't exist in a functional form at the time of your mod. That, and Gwynedd is cool enough to make up for both of them.

[Hresvelgr]

Just got the book a minute ago, seems to be really good compared to all other sources. As you said that you have the same book however, it seems any advice on my part would be worthless, but I felt like putting an idea forward. Mostly it seems the Welsh armored themselves in the same way the English did, but simply had less armor in general. But they still had some scale armor and so the armor worn by the Gwent Raiders in vanilla M2TW Kingdoms seems to be quite accurate, if only those guys wore more realistic and less ugly tunics! But yeah, some of the better off or heavier units could have the same scale corsets and those nice metal helmets. If you are doing regional units however, Gwent should have their own province-specific bowmen, who were known as the best in Wales and by extension the best in the British Isles, perhaps even all of Europe as the Gwent and other South Welsh bowmen formed the core of the English longbow divisions that dominated every battlefield they fought on, even against other Welsh.

[wilddog]

Hi
Yes we've basically done all the units but may do some more localised ones. I'm not sure on scale armour for this age and we didn't really include it in the units. The mod is still a long way off though as mostly we're still fiddling with settlements bits and associated tools still which is taking longer than I expected (due to lack of time on my part).

[Hresvelgr]

Ah, that kinda sucks. Both about the scale armor and about the lack of time to work on the mod. I'd say something about Osprey also depicted the Welsh in scale if it weren't for the fact that I really didn't like that book, although the illustrations are accurate enough. But it is nice to know that you guys are that far into the mod and have completed almost all the units. Wish I could help, but I know very little of modding (or computers in general). Guess the best I can do at this point is wish you good luck.

And your right about the book's map, it was kicking rad, man.

Oh, one more thing, I know you have that good book, but have you also read the Castle Wales article on Welsh warriors? First thing I read on the subject, and while not as expansive it is quite good on its own. In case you have not read it: http://www.castlewales.com/warfare.html

And sorry, I know it seems like I'm coming off as some whiny jerk with an agenda, and I probably am one, it's just that Wales is hardly ever including and if it is, usually not done very well. Just that this mod has promise (especially considering what you've done with the Scots and Irish, no longer cliched and you even included more common saffron war shirts) so I'm a bit anxious and "jumpy" I guess you could say. Again, sorry about that.

[wilddog]

@Hresvelgr - Hey its OK. I read the Castle of Wales article a long time back. Believe me the Welsh should be well represented. As for a second Kingdom I set it up but left it out at the moment. The thing people don't seem to realise is that after the 1282-83 war there were still further welsh wars. Including castles sieged by 10,000 men.

Its why we may move to a slightly larger map and concentrate on the March for a minimod. We already set up certain things for that. We may also decide to move our mod timings back slightly to just before the earlier war for certain game reasons.

[Hresvelgr]

I'm not really that worried over the number of Welsh factions to be honest, although it'd be nice to have 2 perhaps for Custom Battle but not really important at all. If you did make the map larger you could probably get more good out of that slot by introducing a Norway or an Isle (as in the Norwegian puppet kingdom) faction. Which, if you did not want to do much work, you could ask that guy who made the Norse roster mod for DLV. Of course that is low priority, what is important is that the mod be finished as is and stuff. I'm quite confident that this would be great with or without Norway or multiple Welsh factions.

EDIT: Just noticed you said something about taking it back a bit earlier, would I be correct in assuming you mean the 1270's?

[Kamakai]

Cardiff Castle or Caerphilly Castle!