Better religion desperately needed

[Kscott]

Ok for introductions, seeing as I haven't posted much in awhile, I'm an apostate Christian, that has a hard time defining his religious beliefs. I was once very devout, but the more I thought I have put into Christianity, the more it seems like a human construct to me, rather than a divine one.

I have looked in some depth at all the major religions, and all of them seem to present the same problem to me, they are fake. They teach dogmas about the creation of the world and what is to come, when really everything they say is just made up, and sometimes contradictory to itself and science.

Anyways, the point of this thread is not to debate the truth of Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. There are plenty of other threads for that.

My problem is this; I have a deep belief in some kind of higher power, yet I have no idea as to what form this may be in, and I highly doubt anyone could ever know. I also see the usefulness religion can have on society. Lots of the things religions teach about, like the dangers of excess, lying, hate, etc are very true. Religion can help people stay away from vices and live more fulfilled lives. That is why I think religion exists, it provides a very useful service in keeping order within a society. But the problem is on top of such a useful thing every religion throws on loads of nonsense that were just made up in somebody's head at some point in time.

I guess my point is, after all my rambling, that I just wish that something like the Universalist Unitarians became the mainstream religion. Some kind of organization that helped people overcome purposeless of the material world, while not feeding useless lies. I assume most people in such an institution would believe in some sort of deity, but it would not be required. Just a place for the wise to help guide the flock who so often make decisions that are harmful.

[Tigrul]

3/4 of atheists and all agnostics believe that there is a higher being somewhere.

As for other religions... no one is asking you to believe the crap, you can stick to only using the moral code, and ignoring the lies altogether. If the moral code in christianity is good enough for you, stick with it, why not? If, however, the magical part of it is too much, why don't you try budhism? There are two surviving schools of it, and I think that it's the type of religion that can actually coexist in one's mind with other religions as well.

[Kscott]

3/4 of atheists and all agnostics believe that there is a higher being somewhere.

As for other religions... no one is asking you to believe the crap, you can stick to only using the moral code, and ignoring the lies altogether. If the moral code in christianity is good enough for you, stick with it, why not? If, however, the magical part of it is too much, why don't you try budhism? There are two surviving schools of it, and I think that it's the type of religion that can actually coexist in one's mind with other religions as well.

I do for the most part am still kinda a Christian, minus believing in all of the doctrine, but I am not really talking about myself here. I think that the moral code is beneficial to society, while the doctrine is at best of times neutral and at worst of times very harmful.

It would be much better to just have a sound moral code, and a congregation that supports each other. If an institution like a christian church, minus the doctrine and out-dated ideas against things like homosexuality, it would do wonders for the world.

[Samurai Doc]

I do for the most part am still kinda a Christian, minus believing in all of the doctrine, but I am not really talking about myself here. I think that the moral code is beneficial to society, while the doctrine is at best of times neutral and at worst of times very harmful.

It would be much better to just have a sound moral code, and a congregation that supports each other. If an institution like a christian church, minus the doctrine and out-dated ideas against things like homosexuality, it would do wonders for the world.

You and I are a lot alike then. I grew up as a moderate Catholic and then shook the faith pretty young. I have no problem with the ethical mandates of Christianity, it's just all the metaphysical stuff and all the stories that go along with it.

[Taiji]

3/4 of atheists and all agnostics believe that there is a higher being somewhere.

If you're agnostic about religious claims of deities you don't believe in a "higher being", I wonder what gave you that idea?

@Kscott, On the whole I really like the question you're asking, it's so pragmatic and un-dogmatic.

I don't know why but you seem to lack confidence in yourself and other people. You do not need a group which gives you guidance, at the most you just need good mates.

You always have 2 options when dealing with something which you want to change. You can change the thing or you can change yourself. If you are unhappy with society for example then I'd suggest changing yourself as changing society is a bit tough to manage. I don't mean to criticise your point about some people being helped by other peoples guidance sometimes but I do think that relying on yourself to find the answer, whereever practical, makes you stronger and more confident.

Contrastingly, I suspect the idea that you owe your good decision to someone else will weaken you, make you more stupid and less useful to others.

[Gaidin]

3/4 of atheists and all agnostics believe that there is a higher being somewhere.

Wow definitional paradox. Let's at least say something that's possible.

[justicar5]

Wow definitional paradox. Let's at least say something that's possible.

Only 'hard' atheists think there is no possiblity of a god. 'soft' Athiests think that there may be on, but require proof.

Agnostics believe that there probably is, but that it is hubris to believe that we know the nature of it, or that it needs our worship. AFAIK

[Taiji]

Agnostics believe that there probably is, but that it is hubris to believe that we know the nature of it, or that it needs our worship. AFAIK

'Agnostics' believe that they don't know whether or not there is a god.

It's amazing how much confusion there is about this.

Most weak atheists are agnostic about the existance of their chosen god.

Only theists and strong athiests are not agnostic in this regard.

You cannot be agnostic and theist about the same religion (at the same time).

[Carpathian Wolf]

In Orthodoxy if you believe in love, then you believe in God. Unless you have specific questions all the more I can tell you is to go to an Orthodox Church and speak with a priest.

[Chaigidel]

@tigrul lol then 3/4 of atheists arent atheist.
@op its best to study the paths for yourself, there are a host of christian cults which may be more to your liking, perhaps even islam or judaism--- its really a very personal matter, and all about what makes your life and the lives of those around you better.

[Taiji]

One piece of advice I would offer is to learn how 'snake oil' can be sold. If you know how to sell snake oil the chances are you won't get sold any without realising it.

Learning NLP would be a good way to learn how to sell snake oil.

(Snake oil is a medicine sold as a panacea to those foolish enough to buy)

[Ummon]

NLP is ultimately a tool for mentally unendowed people. In Gardner's book, the very example he bases his description upon, is pathogenic for the couple in question. If people weren't so fast in discarding psychoanalysis and so keen in overestimating their own executive processes. Hippies.

(Snake oil is a medicine sold as a panacea to those foolish enough to buy)

Yes I know, we have an analogous in Italian (Olio di Serpente). I was assenting and reinforcing the statement.

[Taiji]

NLP is ultimately a tool for mentally unendowed people. In Gardner's book, the very example he bases his description upon, is pathogenic for the couple in question. If people weren't so fast in discarding psychoanalysis and so keen in overestimating their own executive processes. Hippies.

Yes I know, we have an analogous in Italian (Olio di Serpente). I was assenting and reinforcing the statement.

"NLP is ultimately a tool for mentally unendowed people." is this your opinion of NLP? If it is then it seems to me you have no idea and doubtless no experience of what you are talking about.

Who is Gardner? In fact your whole post seems kinda disjointed... are you having psychoanalysis by any chance?

EDIT: I think I may have just worked out your mistake! You thought I was suggesting NLP is snake oil? Well that's understandable, many mentally challenged people come to the same conclusion. An NLPer usually would make a pretty good snake oil salesman, like Tony Robbins for example, but there is a big difference between being sold snake oil and being taught how to sell it.

If you learn NLP you will improve your ability to defend against unwanted influence, is that clear enough?

[Ummon]

"NLP is ultimately a tool for mentally unendowed people." is this your opinion of NLP? If it is then it seems to me you have no idea and doubtless no experience of what you are talking about.

Quite the opposite.

Who is Gardner?

I would know, but I seem to have lost the book in the piles of volumes I keep on my desk due to urgency.

In fact your whole post seems kinda disjointed... are you having psychoanalysis by any chance?

At least that would work, if I were ill.

EDIT: I think I may have just worked out your mistake! You thought I was suggesting NLP is snake oil? Well that's understandable, many mentally challenged people come to the same conclusion.

Do they? Unfortunately, it's easily provable, that NLP is merely suggestion, and suggestion of the risky kind. The very principle of Homeomorphism with the patient's situation, is infact, babble. You cannot guerantee it without perfect knowledge of the patient's situation, and that knowledge will never be yours.

An NLPer usually would make a pretty good snake oil salesman, like Tony Robbins for example, but there is a big difference between being sold snake oil and being taught how to sell it.

If you learn NLP you will improve your ability to defend against unwanted influence, is that clear enough?

I don't need NLP to defend against unwanted influence.

[Tigrul]

for everyone countering my statement on atheists and agnostics...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist

However, I must agree that that statement of mine is logically erroneous. The accurate statement would be that only 1/4 of atheists dismiss the existence of a god. But, indeed, this does not mean that the other 3/4 believe in the existence of a god, so I was in err.

[The Dude]

My problem is this; I have a deep belief in some kind of higher power, yet I have no idea as to what form this may be in, and I highly doubt anyone could ever know.

This is all you need. It is entirely your right to believe that a higher power is responsible for everything. All that matters is how you define this power. There is no need to subscribe to anyone's school of thought if you feel your own works better for you.

One does not need a religion to serve his god.

EDIT: I feel I have to add one more thing. A religion might give you a sense of belonging, but only to a group of human beings. If you truly, -truly- believe in your god, then your sense of belonging should be satisfied. Believe in him any way you wish, don't let organised religion fool you that they are the only choice.

[Taiji]

@Tigrul, Where are you getting your statistics from? Also I notice you have't admitted your mistake about agnosticism but whatever, we all make mistakes.

@Ummon, You're talking as if NLP is some kind of psychotherapy. This shows you don't know what you're on about, it can be used in therapy but that's not what it is.

I'm sure psychoanalysis really does work for some of some peoples issues some of the time, I don't mean to knock it, it has value.

Are you any good at hypnosis? If you answer yes to this then I concede that NLP won't be that much use to you though you would probably find it interesting. NLP has a very strong emphasis on hypnosis and provides a great way to learn it. Learning to recognise hypnotic techniques can save you a lot of trouble. For one thing you have a greater chance of preventing influence but (more importantly for me personally) you have a much better chance of avoiding accidental hypnotism. If you don't know how to do hypnosis then just like everyone else you'll do it quite often.

[Ummon]

@Ummon, You're talking as if NLP is some kind of psychotherapy. This shows you don't know what you're on about, it can be used in therapy but that's not what it is.

I am referring to a specific aspect which though contains the same limits as the whole. The book is: (Gardner,1971) therapeutic metaphor

I'm sure psychoanalysis really does work for some of some peoples issues some of the time, I don't mean to knock it, it has value.

And NLP does too, but with severe limits. I was appalled when I saw how it is often used infact.

Are you any good at hypnosis?

Merely superficially learned as to the uses and techniques.

If you answer yes to this then I concede that NLP won't be that much use to you though you would probably find it interesting. NLP has a very strong emphasis on hypnosis and provides a great way to learn it. Learning to recognise hypnotic techniques can save you a lot of trouble. For one thing you have a greater chance of preventing influence but (more importantly for me personally) you have a much better chance of avoiding accidental hypnotism. If you don't know how to do hypnosis then just like everyone else you'll do it quite often.

I am aware of what is used in NLP: the problem lies with complex matters of chaos, resonance, and many other issues pertaining the memories involved. Nobody should try to control what is uncontrollable: results can be good, but they can also be very bad.

[C-Rob]

Okay. I'm pretty sure there are things like that, they are simply very small projects though compared to religion. Find one, and join it, so as to boost its numbers if you're so wanting of it.

[Musthavename]

Just to quote the thread title:

Better religion desperately needed

People don't "need" to belong to a religion. The majority of people need beliefs, but not a religion. Believe what you want to believe and stay out of religion. After all, since all religions differ, if there is only one true one, what's the odds of you finding it anyway?

I'll just re-quote the Dude, as he sums it up pretty well.

This is all you need. It is entirely your right to believe that a higher power is responsible for everything. All that matters is how you define this power. There is no need to subscribe to anyone's school of thought if you feel your own works better for you.

One does not need a religion to serve his god.