God can't be omnibenevolent and omniscient at the same time

[Pfundner]

Common Christian beliefs:
God is omniscient and infinite and so Knows everything including the future
God is omnibenevolent, he is unconditional love
Athiests or people of other religions who do not believe in Jesus will not be saved and so go to hell.

I know that not EVERY christian believes in no.3, but a large majority of them do. Afterall jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me."-John 14

So, my point:

If God makes everyone, and if he is omniscient (all knowing) he knows that some of the people he makes are going to become atheists/follow other (wrong) religions. This contradicts omnibenevolence (all lovingness) as he creates those people in the knowledge that they are going to go to hell and suffer eternal torment. Also, the same goes for people who suffer miserable lives or suffer great pain/torment. Does God create these people in the knowledge they are going to spend most of their lives wishing they had never been born?

[Chaigidel]

anything god inflicts upon existence it inflicts upon itself.

[Big War Bird]

God needs not logic.

[Manoflooks]

God needs not logic.

I don't know if that was serious or sarcasm, but it cracked me up.


It is my view that if there is a god, he is a sadistic son of a not worth worshipping anyway. So the OP is true enough.

[Chaigidel]

but we need logic, I think that is the point.

[Thanatos]

People condemn themselves to hell, not God. Everyone has free choice, and if they choose to go down that path, that's not His fault. The whole point is that everyone has had a fair chance.

[Pfundner]

People condemn themselves to hell, not God. Everyone has free choice, and if they choose to go down that path, that's not His fault. The whole point is that everyone has had a fair chance.

Thats utter

Not everyone has the same chance to learn about religion, or jesus and so they are effectively condemned to hell simply because they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time

Lets say the christians are right, you can only get to heaven by believeing in jesus. that means about 2/3 of the world are condemned to hell because they were brought up believing the wrong religion. this is not thier fault. its again just a case of wrong time wrong place. these people have in no way "had a fair chance"

and all these "god needs no logic" answers are just cop outs, and once again show how flawed your religion is. a perfect god would not have handed us his "word" in a book that is full of contradictions, half of which makes no sense to the people that he apparently loves and wants to join him in heaven.

[Mathias]

People condemn themselves to hell, not God. Everyone has free choice, and if they choose to go down that path, that's not His fault. The whole point is that everyone has had a fair chance.

That really didn't answer anything, did it?
I think the point he is trying to make is that if God knows what we are going to do (which he must know if he is omniscient) then there can be no free choice.

[D.B. Cooper]

This debate will never end...God knows what you are going to choose, but it's still up to you to choose. It's like a parent and child, I love my child and hope he will return, but it's ultimately his choice.

And there is no sense of future or time for God, so everything you've done, doing now, and will ever do is happening to God right now.

[MaximiIian]

And there is no sense of future or time for God, so everything you've done, doing now, and will ever do is happening to God right now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best glimpse for what it would be like to be an omnipotent and omniscient god is Dr. Manhattan in the graphic novel Watchmen.

Anywho...
I am glad that I am a polytheist, and that my gods are neither omnibenevolent, omnipotent (in this universe anyway), nor omniscient, so I don't have to wrangle with such a sticky issue.

[Belgian General]

People condemn themselves to hell, not God. Everyone has free choice, and if they choose to go down that path, that's not His fault. The whole point is that everyone has had a fair chance.

Everyone has had a fair chance?
Everyone has had a fair chance?
Has everyone had a fair chance?
Seriously?

No.

I'm not sure if you are talking about having had a fair chance of living a good life or the fair chance of becoming Christian, but both are untrue. People born in the jungle (so to speak) and who thus never get in contact with Christianity, logically haven't had a fair chance to convert.
Same with a child born in the hands of a hungry African mother. I doubt he has fair chances to live a normal life.

[Chaigidel]

christians are wrong, christ was right.

[Pfundner]

christians are wrong, christ was right.

fair enough, finally someone who will admit it

[Sadreddine]

christians are wrong, christ was right.

I loved this.

[Viking Prince]

Common Christian beliefs:
God is omniscient and infinite and so Knows everything including the future
God is omnibenevolent, he is unconditional love
Athiests or people of other religions who do not believe in Jesus will not be saved and so go to hell.

I know that not EVERY christian believes in no.3, but a large majority of them do. Afterall jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me."-John 14

So, my point:

If God makes everyone, and if he is omniscient (all knowing) he knows that some of the people he makes are going to become atheists/follow other (wrong) religions. This contradicts omnibenevolence (all lovingness) as he creates those people in the knowledge that they are going to go to hell and suffer eternal torment. Also, the same goes for people who suffer miserable lives or suffer great pain/torment. Does God create these people in the knowledge they are going to spend most of their lives wishing they had never been born?

You are correct that number three is not believed by all - what is the basis for the majority statement? Looks more like a strawman to set up debate.

[Pfundner]

You are correct that number three is not believed by all - what is the basis for the majority statement?

Thats what i heard in my baptist church, and evangelicals are always banging on about how unless you follow jesus you're damned and catholics i have asked follow a similar line of thought.

also at various times on this very site christians have said things like without jesus you're damned

[Carpathian Wolf]

Common Christian beliefs:
God is omniscient and infinite and so Knows everything including the future
God is omnibenevolent, he is unconditional love
Athiests or people of other religions who do not believe in Jesus will not be saved and so go to hell.

I know that not EVERY christian believes in no.3, but a large majority of them do. Afterall jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me."-John 14

So, my point:

If God makes everyone, and if he is omniscient (all knowing) he knows that some of the people he makes are going to become atheists/follow other (wrong) religions. This contradicts omnibenevolence (all lovingness) as he creates those people in the knowledge that they are going to go to hell and suffer eternal torment. Also, the same goes for people who suffer miserable lives or suffer great pain/torment. Does God create these people in the knowledge they are going to spend most of their lives wishing they had never been born?

The first thing you must do is realize that God is not limited by time. For us our lives, our existance happens in a straight line from point A to B. For God when he watches something, he sees everything happening at the same time at once constantly.

God gives everyone free will and makes people regardless if they make a bad or good choice. If he didn't make someone based on their bad choice that would be taking free will away, like keeping the people who vote against your canidate from voting.

I don't know about others, but in Orthodoxy salvation is between you and God. And we are to say "I am chief amongst sinners" and believe it. So for example I believe Hitler has a better chance to get into heaven than I do. Why? Because thinking any other way would mean I consider myself better than him and I attempt to take God's will away from judgement.

[Pfundner]

I don't know about others, but in Orthodoxy salvation is between you and God. And we are to say "I am chief amongst sinners" and believe it. So for example I believe Hitler has a better chance to get into heaven than I do. Why? Because thinking any other way would mean I consider myself better than him and I attempt to take God's will away from judgement.

Interesting, but does this not devaluate doing good? you try and be good and yet you're still worse than hitler?

[Carpathian Wolf]

Interesting, but does this not devaluate doing good? you try and be good and yet you're still worse than hitler?

Well in Orthodoxy the notion of heaven for example is a bit different. The west tends to be more legalistic.

Jesus gave his life. You get possibility of salvation. You put x amount of good in your life, you get reward in heaven.

In Orthodoxy God became man so that man may become God, theosis, to merge and be one with God and be perfect. You do good not because you give X to get Y, but because simply doing good is a method of perfecting yourself, like working out.

Saying to yourself that you are chief amongst sinners and believing it is a manner to be humble, and to never waver in your commitment at perfection. That is why we never say "we are saved!" I went to a west theology private high school and I can remember how often I was asked if I was saved. "How can you not know? Jesus died for you so you get to go to heaven just believe in him!" It's a cold dry academic legalistic manner in which one looks at it I think.

[Pfundner]

It's a cold dry academic legalistic manner in which one looks at it I think.

agreed

Saying to yourself that you are chief amongst sinners and believing it is a manner to be humble, and to never waver in your commitment at perfection.

but you can never be perfect. how do you keep youreslf trying? does a point not come when you say, well i can never be perfect, not even close, so why bother anymore?