MMORPGs [I Am Herenow vs. Viking Prince]

[I Am Herenow]

I am, in this, my first debate, going to put forward the motion that massively multiplayer online role-playing games (or MMORPGs) are, firstly, inherently addictive, and that, secondly, they take up too much of people's time. Viking Prince will be arguing against this, and furthermore will argue that MMORPGs can teach players important life skills.

Let me open my argument by pointing out this news article about an MMORPG player who murdered a fellow gamer for selling his virtual sword. Surely to be so engrossed in a computer game as to be driven to murder those who let you down online cannot be healthy?

[Viking Prince]

A fun alternative to getting together as a group. That is all online role playing is really. My personal preference is to do more stuff in person and not rely on the internet for entertainment, but then we are posting this debate online.

Your article mentions:

According to the Chinese press, more and more gamers are seeking justice through the courts over stolen weapons and credits accumulated in games.

OK. Yhat is one bad behaving dude. The courst should be involved. But I do not see a reason to assume such online activities are inherently addictive or how they differ from other activities in any way that matters. I have heard the same stories in the 1970's about kids playing Dungeons and Dragons face to face. I remember being kicked out of the house and being told to play outside when growing up. There is nothing special about on line gaming.

I am eager to see how this debate develops.

[I Am Herenow]

Dungeons & Dragons is, I believe, also an RPG, which further evidences the argument that role-playing games are, by their nature, more addictive than other computer games. I will go into why I think this is a little later, but for now, let me draw your attention to this article which talks about a gamer who, after being fired for spending too much time playing games, died of exhaustion after playing an MMORPG consecutively for 50 hours. Clearly, if MMORPGs have the power to engross players to such an extent that it can lead to them placing those games above the law (as in the first article), above their work and even above their health in importance, then there is something about them which makes them more addictive than other forms of entertainment. If you want another example of extreme behaviour caused by MMORPGs, then here is another story concerned with an MMORPG player murdering another gamer because of online actions.

You may argue that these are all extreme cases and do not reflect the effect that MMORPGs have on most people. While they are indeed extreme cases, this is not to say that they should be discounted. Three separate cases of deaths caused by online games seems already quite substantial, and moreover the fact that there seem to be no similar stories regarding more "traditional" multiplayer videogames such as Pro Evolution Soccer, nor of films, books, or any other form of entertainment, causing such extreme, obsessive behaviour, suggests that it is the nature of the MMORPGs more than the personality of the players involved that is more responsible here.

[Viking Prince]

First, people have recently died snow mobiling in the mmountains and triggered an avalance. I do not see any cries of banning or controling their use to nonmountain areas. People abuse booze and die or maybe only beat their spouse to death. So I agree such extremes do not make good policy decisons. Just like the most irritating phrase --"If only one life could be saved."

Your main point is that they are addictive. I think most anything can be addictive to some people and that most activities are not addictive to most people. Do we restrict due to the risk of some or allow the many to benefit? This is indeed a free will activity in which adults participate or children do so under parental supervision.

[I Am Herenow]

A distinction must be drawn between dying whilst riding a snowmobile down a mountain slope and dying of exhaustion after spending 50 hours in front of a computer. The former is simply an accident which can be expected to sometimes occur given the dangerous nature of the activity during which it did occur. A parallel with MMORPGs would not be dying of exhaustion, but rather being electrocuted by the computer. The latter would also be a tragic accident but would tell us nothing of the nature of online role-playing games. The former, however, is entirely avoidable simply by taking breaks from gaming, and therefore the fact that someone should have been so eager to play their game that they, in effect, forgot to live, highlights the potential for obsessive behaviour when playing MMORPGs.

Regarding alcohol, I suppose a parallel could be drawn between some people becoming more violent when under its influence, and some online gamers being violent towards other players in real life because of in-game actions. This, however, would again suggest that MMORPGs are, at best, a time-waster, and are, at worst, unhealthy.

Next, I do not believe we are debating whether access to online games should be restricted, only whether they are addictive or not. If you wish to also debate sanctions on online gaming, as well as simply discussing its merits and drawbacks, then I do not mind doing so, but that would mean changing the debate somewhat.

[Viking Prince]

Perhaps you should narrow your claim for me. I am simply not convinced that this is somthing unique to MMORPG or even RPG. I think you are seeing people that have problems and issues and are also involved in MMORPG and not that MMORPG is a cause.

A google search pops up many game playing addiction articles. The common theme of these is that people are addicted, but there is no real claim that this is a unigue problem to video games. I fail to see a special reason to single out MMORPG as a special case.

Also, what is the nature of addiction. You have mentioned some extreme cases where murder has taken place and exhaustion from being glued to the event. What are the more common symptoms of MMORPG addiction?

Please guide me as to your position.

[I Am Herenow]

Alright, in that case let me move on to my next point: that the addictive qualities of massively multiplayer online role-playing games are a consequence of those games' very nature.

I feel that MMORPGs are more prone to causing extreme behaviour (again, there seem to be no stories of murders due to activity in offline multiplayer videogames) because, firstly, of their open-ended nature, and secondly, because of their mechanic of a player's character increasing in strength as they play.

A non-MMO videogame will typically have a set amount of levels through which the player can play, or a set amount of "things" that the player can do (as in the case of Total War games; i.e., when playing the grand campaign, the player will conquer the whole world or run out of turns eventually), before they can claim to have completed the game. Although some games may have a certain replay value to them, the fact that there is a clear ending to those games encourages players to take their time when playing, as there is no sense rushing them. With MMORPGs, however, there is no defined end point, as the games claim to represent a living, alternate world or universe which will continue to exist and of which any given player is but a small part. Thus, MMORPG players can keep playing, as, with the larger MMORPGs especially, they will, in effect, never run out of things to do. Added to that are the regular content updates released by the games' developers, through patches or expansion packs, which will keep players playing for even longer.

Secondly, RPGs rely to a far greater extent on the skill of the player's character, rather than that of the player themselves, for success. Thus, unlike in a racing game, for example, where a good enough player can beat other players even in a worse car than them, it is impossible for low-levelled RPG characters to beat high-levelled monsters or acquire high-levelled items. Furthermore, the prospect of increasing one's character's strength as one plays an MMORPG and thus gaining access to "better" areas the more one plays encourages players to "level up" as quickly as possible. This translates into more obsessive gaming and longer hours spend in front of the computer.

[Viking Prince]

I still do not see a tie in between the player and the game that does not also assume a defect in the player personality before beginning the game.

It is a natural assumption to make that people with an existing defect in their personalty can be attracted to such games. This would mean that the problem is within an individual and not really within the game mechanism.

How is this differant from a person discovering a 20 year supply of "As the World Turns" on dvd and getting hooked to the next crisis/cliff hanger and watching until they drop? In this case you can easily see the problem is not the dvd or even the soap opera, but the personality of the individual who is compulsive and also attracted to soap operas. How is the MMORPG any dfferant?

[I Am Herenow]

The main difference is that there have been a number of concrete cases which I have pointed out where playing MMORPGs has led to obsessive behaviour; your example about watching soap operas until one dies is, at present, entirely speculative. Thus, at present, if we work from the concrete examples which we currently have, we must be forced to conclude that playing MMORPGs leads to extreme behaviour in extreme cases, something which is not witnessed with other forms of entertainment, leading us to believe that it is indeed the nature of MMORPGs, and not simply the personality of their players, which is a contributing factor to such obsessive behaviour.

To compare online role-playing games to soap operas, then, enjoying the latter still has a "cap" or limit: there are only so many old episodes one can watch, and new ones only come out so often. Thus, it is not possible to watch a soap opera excessively for any long period of time, as one will run out of content, unlike with online role-playing games.

Another element of MMORPGs which encourages excessive play is that of high-score tables and leaderboards. These show the best, highest-levelled or similar players, and many will strive to be ranked as highly as possible in those leaderboards. However, as they are dynamic, one will have to maintain a certain level of progress simply to "stay afloat"; and they will have to put in even more hours of play in order to rise in the tables. This keeps even those players who might arguably have otherwise "completed" most of the game's content - something which would usually cause one to stop playing a videogame - playing regularly. As there is no prize or recognition for watching a soap opera's episodes more times than anyone else, there is no compulsion to do so.

[Viking Prince]

I still think that to make a case, there needs to be something more than examples such as a clincical diagnosis that the game is the cause. I still side with what I think is a simpler explanation that those results that you have shown are people with mental disorders and that they happened to also be playing the game.

Addiction is most often associated with alcohol, drugs and cigarettes — but what about compulsive eating, gambling, or video gaming? According to the American Psychiatric Association, compulsive gambling meets the criteria for addiction, but compulsive video gaming does not.

Talk of the Nation, July 10, 2007

I would also like to add as an aside a recent post by Justinian:

Psychopaths existed before porn, exist during porn and will exist after we cease to become sexual entities. As someone who posts on a gaming site, you should know the issues with this argument -- it is the same one used to argue for banning violent video games, because it supposedly turns people into mass murdering psycopaths. We've all killed thousands of thousands of pixels in TW games, inflicted all kinds of violence on people in games, and does it make us any more or less likely to kill? No. People who kill others out of psycopathic tendencies are psychopaths, plain and simple -- they will be psycopaths with or without outside influence. Jack the Ripper had no porn to 'pervert his mind'.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...66#post4213366

[I Am Herenow]

I still side with what I think is a simpler explanation that those results that you have shown are people with mental disorders and that they happened to also be playing the game.

But wouldn't such a conclusion require there to also have been cases of people playing multiplayer offline console games with someone and murdering them, if the nature of the game is irrelevant to whether or not a murder will take place?

According to the American Psychiatric Association, compulsive gambling meets the criteria for addiction, but compulsive video gaming does not.

Talk of the Nation

But linked from that article is this one which asserts that people can indeed become addicted to video gaming. Whether or not a video gaming habit technically qualifies as an "addiction" seems irrelevant; if a clinic for people who feel like they are addicted to video games has been set up, then that clearly demonstrates that there are enough people who cannot stop playing and are presumably willing to pay for professional help. Thus, those people are, in their own eyes, addicted, regardless of what experts might say.

Furthermore, this same site focuses specifically on MMORPGs (indeed, it does not even mention any other type of video game) in its audio report on the matter.

I would also like to add as an aside a recent post by Justinian:

Psychopaths existed before porn, exist during porn and will exist after we cease to become sexual entities. As someone who posts on a gaming site, you should know the issues with this argument -- it is the same one used to argue for banning violent video games, because it supposedly turns people into mass murdering psycopaths. We've all killed thousands of thousands of pixels in TW games, inflicted all kinds of violence on people in games, and does it make us any more or less likely to kill? No. People who kill others out of psycopathic tendencies are psychopaths, plain and simple -- they will be psycopaths with or without outside influence. Jack the Ripper had no porn to 'pervert his mind'.

If we take, then, the MMORPG player from the audio report linked above, would you say that it were more likely that he were a psychopath and that he had mental health issues even before he started playing EverQuest, or alternatively that he were leading a normal life before he began gaming? The report does seem to favour the latter theory, given its mention of his having had a wife and three children who only left him after he became addicted to the online game.

I Am Herenow

[Viking Prince]

Many people can lead normal lives while suffering mild mental disorders. A huge percentage of the population suffers from mild forms of depression. This can mean that the correct circumstances and activities can bring on more significant forms of depression. That does not mean that those same activities are the cause of depression or that normal healthy people engaged in those activities will suffer depression.

The same is true of your given examples of people suffering consequences due to MMORPG. I have not played on line role playing games, but I have no doubt that such an activity can be a safe and enjoyable activity. Like anything taken to excess, there can be consequences. A compulsive desire to continue at the expense of life in general is not really different from a gambling addiction or even sitting in front of television for way too much of your life.

So to conclude -- on line role playing games are not inherently addictive. A healthy person is quite able to participate and keep the activity in balance with a healthy life. People who are driven to exhaustion or murder are suffering from mental disorders and can quite easily suffer the same consequences with other activities in life if not properly treated.

If you have more information to give, we can continue. If you think that you have given as much to this debate as possible to present your side, you may have a closing argument.

[I Am Herenow]

Alright then, it does indeed seem a fitting time to sum up.

Although MMORPGs may not have adverse effects on many of their players, the fact that they do cause extreme behaviour in some, and other forms of entertainment, it would appear, do not, does indicate that their nature is partly responsible for bringing about such obsessive behaviour on the part of some players. I would attribute this to their limitless structure, incentive to level up one's character, and use of leaderboards which further promote continuous gaming.

I Am Herenow

[Каие]

Do not post unless you are one of the debaters.

DEBATE FINISHED, JOLLY GOOD SHOW LADS.