Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

[Arnspac]

Well it would be simpler if you quoted sources or the post, or if you wish to use a diguised Faux interpretation then say you are paraphrasing said author. But my ancient eyes fail to see where I or anyone used" Cymry " and if it was, in what connotation.

[Lewagal]

Wait so they start in Germania or Jutland?

[Cyrus the Virus]

Wait so they start in Germania or Jutland?

The latter.

[rory o'kane]

I'm the guy he's on about. as a fluent welsh speaker and a massive Roman fan, it annoys the hell out of me.

[Elmetiacos]

Right, sorry, didn't know about this in joke thing; to me it looked as if Arnspac was saying "I have a theory that the Welsh (Cymry) are the Cimbri" and when I explain why this looks plausible but actually isn't, get a reply which looks a bit like "What are you talking about with all this proto-Celtic stuff? Prove you're not a crank!" It was like being back on the EBI forums...

I'm not an 'expert on the Welsh language' (eek!) but because I've read a lot of this stuff for a long time, some things to me are "givens" which might not be to other people. It was like "I thought everybody knew that it comes from *kom-mroges!" when clearly everybody doesn't.

Cymry is just the plural of Cymro.

[Brusilov]

Right, sorry, didn't know about this in joke thing; to me it looked as if Arnspac was saying "I have a theory that the Welsh (Cymry) are the Cimbri" and when I explain why this looks plausible but actually isn't, get a reply which looks a bit like "What are you talking about with all this proto-Celtic stuff? Prove you're not a crank!" It was like being back on the EBI forums...

If you re-read the posts you were not referred to as a crank. Arnspac simply wanted you to provide sources for your statements.

The following is their request for sources;

Well it would be simpler if you quoted sources or the post, or if you wish to use a diguised Faux interpretation then say you are paraphrasing said author. But my ancient eyes fail to see where I or anyone used" Cymry " and if it was, in what connotation.

To which you replied;

Sources? This isn't a matter for academic debate, it's universally acknowledged by every writer on Celtic languages since about 1890. If you're so convinced that I could be lying, you should be able to find Morris-Jones Welsh Grammar: Historical and Comparative somewhere online. It should also tell you that Cymry is the plural of Cymro. I don't know if you'll be able to understand it, though... I don't want to sound too rude, but coming along without even the most basic understanding of etymology or the Welsh language and asserting that the Welsh are descended from a particular tribe, all based on what was written by a Napoleonic era lexicographer in an English dictionary doesn't wash at all.

Anyway, this is all off-topic (which is "Cimbri Faction Preview").

[Arnspac]

Good Lord in heaven...rory would have flailed me alive for insinuating such things. ( well publicly anyway )

Glad it's cleared up.

If you enjoy etymology check this out, they left me in the dirt about post #3.

http://www.allempires.net/forum_post...=499646#499646


"Cymru am byth."

Attachment 29157

[rory o'kane]

Guys, you're arguing at cross purposes. Cymry (Welsh people) is the plural of Cymro (Welsh person), who live in Cymru (Wales), like me.

[Caligula Caesar]

I am not sure if this has been asked, but will the Cimbri be German or Celtic in RS2? They are supposedly Germans, but their names are Celtic, for instance "Boiorix" means "King of the Boii" or something like that in Celtic. Also, will RS somehow script in their invasion of Gaul, Spain and Italy?

[pseudocaesar]

I am not sure if this has been asked, but will the Cimbri be German or Celtic in RS2? They are supposedly Germans, but their names are Celtic, for instance "Boiorix" means "King of the Boii" or something like that in Celtic. Also, will RS somehow script in their invasion of Gaul, Spain and Italy?

They are most definitely Germans, they hailed from Jutland (Denmark). Im sure Mullato can expand, but in short yes they are german, and no I dont believe we are doing any scripting like that. It would be too contextually dependant, and would never play out in the game like it would have in antiquity (i.e Romes positions, tribes of Gaul, all that).

[Caligula Caesar]

Sure they lived in Denmark. I know that. I did actually read most of your preview. However, just because they lived in Germania doesn't mean they were Germans. If I take this sentence, for instance:

"Their tribal confederates were the Teutones, Amburones, Tigurines, Boii and the Helvetti. The known Cimbri Chiefs were, Boiorix , Gaesorix and Lugius."

Boiorix , Gaesorix and Lugius are all Celtic names, certainly not German. Teutobod (who was king of the Teutones at the time) is probably alsoa Celtic name ("bod" meaning "raven"), and the word Teutones could be a latised variation of either a Germanic or Celtic word.

BTW, the Boii and Tigurines were both Gallic tribes, and the Amburones (I think you meant Ambrones) were of debatable origin. As for the Helvetii, I couldn't find any evidence either way, except for that they were considered Celtic by ancient writers.

If you are not going to have them invade Italy, what is the point of having them, except of course for the fact that there are more records about them? Then you might as well use the Cherusci, who under Arminius temporarily unified many German tribes to combat the Romans when they finally decided to invade Germania. And of course, they won. But since you are going to use the Cimbri, may I suggest that a) They can horde, and horde in big numbers, and b) Their victory condition should include capturing Rome and destroying the Romans.

[Arnspac]

Sure they lived in Denmark. I know that. I did actually read most of your preview. However, just because they lived in Germania doesn't mean they were Germans. If I take this sentence, for instance:

"Their tribal confederates were the Teutones, Amburones, Tigurines, Boii and the Helvetti. The known Cimbri Chiefs were, Boiorix , Gaesorix and Lugius."

Boiorix , Gaesorix and Lugius are all Celtic names, certainly not German. Teutobod (who was king of the Teutones at the time) is probably alsoa Celtic name ("bod" meaning "raven"), and the word Teutones could be a latised variation of either a Germanic or Celtic word.

BTW, the Boii and Tigurines were both Gallic tribes, and the Amburones (I think you meant Ambrones) were of debatable origin. As for the Helvetii, I couldn't find any evidence either way, except for that they were considered Celtic by ancient writers.

If you are not going to have them invade Italy, what is the point of having them, except of course for the fact that there are more records about them? Then you might as well use the Cherusci, who under Arminius temporarily unified many German tribes to combat the Romans when they finally decided to invade Germania. And of course, they won. But since you are going to use the Cimbri, may I suggest that a) They can horde, and horde in big numbers, and b) Their victory condition should include capturing Rome and destroying the Romans.

There is and may continue to be a controversy as to whether Cimbri / Teutones were actually of Celtic stock. People far wiser than I are still debating this issue. Read David Faux's Cimbri Chronology.

The Amburones were a Helvetian tribe that joined the Teutones with the Tigurini after the dust up with Carbo.

The Ambrones were from the Frisian Islands and were close neighbours of the Cimbri and Teutones. They left a camp in Gaul and later became the Aduatuci.

The decision was made to use the Amburones. We have Cherusci allies and others.

Unless I'm mistaken they can invade any territory they want.
The other questions will have to be answered by senior members of the team.
Regards

Arnspac

[Mulattothrasher]

I personally believe he Cimbri were a Germanic, or at the most, a Celto-Germanic tribe. The Celts had been sending colonies and tribes across the Rhine for generations, especially the southern part of Germany, where the Vindelici, Volcae, Boii, and other groups were rooted. Just keep in mind that Caesar's distinction of splitting everything Germanic and Celtic on each side of the Rhine is a over simplification, as he even admits to the Volcae residing in Germany and mentions they dress like the Germans and all that (but are not Germans)

Once the Cimbri got heading down south, they were certainly not invincible as they were defeated and sent on their way by plenty of Celtic tribes before they even met the Romans.

Still, if they were Germanic, its likely that their true origin could have been confused by the Romans and Celticized in a way. For example:

Gallic:Teutoboduos
Germanic Theudabadus

Gallic: Boiorix
Germanic:Baiarikas

Maybe its apple and oranges, but but I would wager that by the time the Teutones and Cimbri reached the Romans, the descriptions of shining armor and things like that implies a strong Celtic element in their ranks

[ChrisJoker]

I personally believe he Cimbri were a Germanic, or at the most, a Celto-Germanic tribe. The Celts had been sending colonies and tribes across the Rhine for generations, especially the southern part of Germany, where the Vindelici, Volcae, Boii, and other groups were rooted. Just keep in mind that Caesar's distinction of splitting everything Germanic and Celtic on each side of the Rhine is a over simplification, as he even admits to the Volcae residing in Germany and mentions they dress like the Germans and all that (but are not Germans)

Once the Cimbri got heading down south, they were certainly not invincible as they were defeated and sent on their way by plenty of Celtic tribes before they even met the Romans.

Still, if they were Germanic, its likely that their true origin could have been confused by the Romans and Celticized in a way. For example:

Gallic:Teutoboduos
Germanic Theudabadus

Gallic: Boiorix
Germanic:Baiarikas

Maybe its apple and oranges, but but I would wager that by the time the Teutones and Cimbri reached the Romans, the descriptions of shining armor and things like that implies a strong Celtic element in their ranks

interesting good point somehow to me the cimbri semed as a germanic mixed a little with kelts and i think its kind of dum that sill some historians wonder weither they were kelts or germans were they most like have been both but with german origin althought they seem to show a more german background but might have liked accepted some or many of keltic culture and maybe be mixed with each otherbut anyways it seemes likely for me but they are more warlike than then kelts and they are one of my favorite factions cant wait to play them

EXTASIS CIMBRICUS!!! OR TERROR CRIMBRICUS!!!

[Caligula Caesar]

You do have to admit that the AI is unlikely to follow their historical expansion and will probably conquer Germania and then make war on whoever you have in Gaul. Anyway, since we don't exactly know what they are, I can except that they will be Germans in RS2. BTW, to the comment about them "not being what you would expect from barbarians", the Romans of course classified any non-Romans as barbarians, even (IIRC) many of the Greeks.

[Arnspac]

You do have to admit that the AI is unlikely to follow their historical expansion and will probably conquer Germania and then make war on whoever you have in Gaul. Anyway, since we don't exactly know what they are, I can except that they will be Germans in RS2. BTW, to the comment about them "not being what you would expect from barbarians", the Romans of course classified any non-Romans as barbarians, even (IIRC) many of the Greeks.

The AI in vanilla reacts differently than the AI in Barb. Invasion, and yes they probably will not follow expansion historically. Each time I have played the game, the expansion by the AI is never the same. Someone, ( chaplain 118 post 120 ) mentioned that the Romans viewed anyone who did not shave as a "barbarian ". However if you gleen over the social aspects of these people they are anything BUT. I still think they were more civilized than the Romans.

[ChrisJoker]

The AI in vanilla reacts differently than the AI in Barb. Invasion, and yes they probably will not follow expansion historically. Each time I have played the game, the expansion by the AI is never the same. Someone, ( chaplain 118 post 120 ) mentioned that the Romans viewed anyone who did not shave as a "barbarian ". However if you gleen over the social aspects of these people they are anything BUT. I still think they were more civilized than the Romans.

i dont understand how the AI doesnt follow the victory conditions in EB of historical invasions can u guys maybe though about it it would be great if thay tried to invade places were they shouldnt like in my campaing the parthians instead of trying to conquer the rich and green rich land of baktria or seleukeia they instead go noreth to conquer some weak nations with no economic inportance and makes their army divide and without chalange boringly conquer them easily maybe u guys can hve something like that in this mod

[Mulattothrasher]

However if you gleen over the social aspects of these people they are anything BUT. I still think they were more civilized than the Romans.

Amen. Lets take a look at the laws of the 'barbarian' Celts:

The Brehon Law was based on an individual's identity, defined in terms of clan and personal wealth. Honor was evaluated in terms of personal wealth and each person's wealth or honor price reflected his legal status in the community. In the sight of the law, the bishop, king, chief poet, and public hospitaller (person who owned and operated guest houses for no fee) were in the same rank and a like fine or honor price was payable for the killing of any of the four. The Irish law expected most from those who had received the most from God. For example, a member of the clergy might be fined double that of a lay person for the same offense. For certain offenses, lay people of rank were deprived of half their honor price for the first offense and all their honor price for the third offense. Clerics, on the other hand, would not only lose all their honor price for the first offense, but would be degraded as well. An ordinary cleric could, by doing penance and suffering punishment, win back his grade; a cleric of higher rank, such as a bishop, however, not only lost his honor price and was degraded for the first offense, but he could never again regain his position.

The Brehon Law applied to all areas of life and reflects the values of the people. In education, the rule was "instruction without reservation, correctness without harshness are due from the master to the pupil." The master was also expected to feed and clothe his student. The student, in turn, was indebted to his instructor whom he was expected to support in his old age if the instructor was incapacitated or had no clan to care for him. Under the law, anyone who insulted or assaulted a student was guilty of insult or assault to the teacher. It was, therefore, to the teacher that a fine was paid. It was also the law that a student pay to his teacher the first fee earned by him when he graduated into a profession. Even though the mass of the people was not educated, all, including women, who desired an education could get one under the law.

While women in the Western World have been emancipated for less than a century, women in ancient Ireland were nearly on an equal footing with men. They were queens in their own right and led troops into battle. Women always held a place of respect in Celtic society and were accorded their rights as well. It took English law and civilization "to put women in their place." Ironically, the stamping out of the Brehon Laws, and with them the rights of women, was finally accomplished under Queen Elizabeth of England.

In ancient Ireland, under Brehon Law, the lowest clansman stood on an equal footing with his chieftain. For example, it is recorded that when several Irish Kings visited Richard II in Dublin, the Irish kings sat down to dinner with their minstrels and entire retinue as was their custom. The English were appalled by such a display of egalitarianism and soon rearranged things so that the Irish royalty ate separately from the rest of their attendants. The Irish gave in to this demand of the English in order to be courteous guests even though it went very much against their inclination and custom.

It should not be surprising that it was in this race of Gaels, where the equality of man was so well understood and practiced, that woman stood emancipated from the remotest time. Indeed, women in ancient Ireland were often eligible for the professions, and for rank and fame. They were druidesses, poets, physicians, sages, and lawgivers. Bridget was not only the name of the ancient Irish goddess who represented poetry and wisdom, and of the later saint who helped to spread Christianity throughout Ireland, but was also the name of an Irish lawgiver, Brigid Brethra, or Brigid of the Judgments, who lived about the time of Christ. It is this Brigid who is responsible for granting the right to women to inherit the land from their fathers in the absence of sons.

Under Brehon Law women were equal to men with regard to education and property. After marriage, the woman was a partner with, and not the property of, her husband. She remained the sole owner of property that had been hers prior to marriage. Property jointly owned by her and her husband could not be sold without her approval and consent. A married woman retained the right to pursue a case at law as well as recover for debt in her own person. In certain cases of legal separation for good cause, the wife not only took with her all of the marriage portion and gifts, but an amount over and above that for damages.

Because of their equality, or near equality, with men in other realms, women warriors frequently felt it was their duty to take up arms and march into battle with their brothers or husbands. Beginning with the warrior Queen of the Milesians, the Book of Invasions lists several women leaders. In the Ulster cycle of tales the noblest warrior of Ulster, Cuchulainn, was taught the art of war by a woman warrior named Aoive, and fought his greatest battles against the forces of Queen Maeve of Connacht.

It was only in 697 that women were exempted from warfare. The law exempting them is known as the Cain Adanman after St. Adanman, who, at his mother's behest, fought for this exemption. It seems that St. Adanman's mother, Ronait, was appalled by the barbarity she witnessed of one woman with an iron sickle savagely tearing apart another woman in battle.

Even though women were exempted from warfare in 697, this warrior tradition persisted into the sixteenth century in the person of Grania Uaile (Grace O'Malley). She was an Irish sea-queen, pirate, who was, if one can believe the accounts written by Sir Richard Bingham in 1593, "the nurse of all rebellions for the last forty years." While the English managed to stamp out the Brehon Law by the sixteenth century, the memory of these laws survived into the nineteenth century and showed itself in the Land League and the people's claims. It is not surprising then that the Brehon Law has excited the wonder and admiration not only of laymen, but of eminent jurists deeply versed in ancient and modern law codes. It is under this ancient, just and beautiful judicial structure that men and women lived in equality and democracy in Ireland. The sense of justice and fair play expressed by the Brehon Law is, and always has been, a source of pride to the Irish as well as a strong part of their heritage.

(written by Loretta Wilson & originally printed in 1989)

[ChrisJoker]

Amen. Lets take a look at the laws of the 'barbarian' Celts:

oooooooooooooooooooooookay not sure im that Keltic fanatic but some other peoples were more civilised than this kelts such as the ancient indous, or the arabs,aztecs,maya,babylonians,persians,chinese,japanese although i have their aprecciation for having great leader figures like vercingetorix and more civilised knoledge and morals and craftsmanship than the romans they still were unciviled in some manners just the though they dindt take showers give them to the romans their bad reputation and althogh they considerd themselves free man u should have some rules on making ur selfe take a shower but dont get me rong all people have their rong side its just to they were probably barbarians but smart barbarians but is just like what they say "Quisque Est Barbarus Alio" (someone is a barbarian to someone)got it from EB but u know what i mean

[Mulattothrasher]

oooooooooooooooooooooookay not sure im that Keltic fanatic but some other peoples were more civilised than this kelts such as the ancient indous, or the arabs,aztecs,maya,babylonians,persians,chinese,japanese although i have their aprecciation for having great leader figures like vercingetorix and more civilised knoledge and morals and craftsmanship than the romans they still were unciviled in some manners just the though they dindt take showers give them to the romans their bad reputation and althogh they considerd themselves free man u should have some rules on making ur selfe take a shower but dont get me rong all people have their rong side its just to they were probably barbarians but smart barbarians but is just like what they say "Quisque Est Barbarus Alio" (someone is a barbarian to someone)got it from EB but u know what i mean

I went into some detail on Celts and Germans actually having soap and hygiene before the 'civilized' Greeks and Romans. See here, starting with post #78
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=180996&page=2