Roma Surrectum 2.0: Cimbri Faction Preview

[DaVinci]

I second what friend Atterdag says above
And i hope RS 2.0 will be modfoldered.

Maybe here and there i find some comments a bit pathetic ... ie. that the word "barbarians" relates to the hellenic Greeks who called every other people barbarians would help to understand the background of the term "barbarians", which went over to the Romans etc., and is misused until today. It happened as following, as far what we know:
The Greeks didn't understand (of course) what other people said, and understood only something like "bar bar (or) wha wha" in their ears ... so the term barbar was born for foreign people other than Greeks

Also, is it intended to use the Cimbri&Teutones as the representation of the Germanic tribes in the whole as faction in RS 2.0? I find this a bit questionable to use that faction name for the Germanic people in the faction slot, as you know: the Cimbri existed only very temporary. They would be perfect for a time limited RS "minimod", just like what RTR is doing since their TIC mod.

[cherryfunk]

"What have the Vandals ever done for us?"

"Well, they did clean up the city a bit..."

[Ballacraine]

"What have the Vandals ever done for us?"

"Well, they did clean up the city a bit..."

A nice turnabout of a classic question.

[ChrisJoker]

"What have the Vandals ever done for us?"

"Well, they did clean up the city a bit..."

gave way to the word vandalism bad reputation

[cherryfunk]

Heavily armed, 7-foot tall Vandal: "Hey, you guys don't need this marble statue, do you?"

Unarmed Roman citizens: "Uh... no, not at all. It's all yours."

Heavily armed Vandal: "Cool. Hey, you don't need this priceless fresco, do you?"

[Ballacraine]

Ancestors of Steptoe & Son!

( You perhaps have to be of a certain age to get that reference! )

[Flavius Maccus Opium]

Nice , as always, models (the Batavian infantry ,my favorites) and, by the way, strange people those celtic/germano cimbri .
I watched the details in the shots.Nice "grass" in some particular areas.

[bucellarii]

Nice preview

For those of you interested in the Suebi (proto-Germanic Sweboz) the following entry from Rives' commentary on Germania is quite illuminating:

Who the Suebi were has been the subject of much discussion. Some have considered the name simply an ethnographic convenience, used by Graeco-Roman writers to lump together a number of separate tribes that in fact had little connection with one another; others have argued that it was originally a single tribe (usually identified with the Semnones) who through expansion and assimiliation of other groups became an amphictyony. More recent scholars have suggested that the term originally denoted not a tribe but a social category, the military bands that in the first century BC pressed westwards from the Elbe: these bands formed the core around which an actual tribe later developed. Archaeologically, there are fairly good reasons to associate the name with the Elbe culture complex: several of the tribes whom the sources regularly classify as Suebi, notably the Semnones, Langobardi, Marcomanni, and Quadi, are said to have inhabited areas in which the material culture clearly belonged to the Elbe group

Rives: Tacitus, Germania

I know my friend DaVinci has had an interest in the Cimbri since we started working together on the FRRE Team for a Marius-Sulla Campaign many moons ago.

The Celto-Germanic debate about the Cimbri can never be definitely resolved, since neither the ancient sources (Posidonius F272, Strabo 7.2.1-2, Florus 1.38.1, Plutarch.Marius 11.5-7, Justin.Epit 38.4.15, Velleius Paterculus 2.12.2, Caesar B.G 1.33.4 etc) and the archaeology are conclusive.

Moreover the connection between the migrating Cimbri and a northern Jutland homeland is not quite as certain as commonly believed. For example the archaelogical record doesn't appear to provide clear evidence for a mass migration in the late second century. Whilst the safe money is to go with Poseidonius/Strabo and to accept the northern Jutland origins of the Cimbri it is also probably wise to recognise much about the history of this nation is lost to us forever

[Arnspac]

Nice preview


I know my friend DaVinci has had an interest in the Cimbri since we started working together on the FRRE Team for a Marius-Sulla Campaign many moons ago.

The Celto-Germanic debate about the Cimbri can never be definitely resolved, since neither the ancient sources (Posidonius F272, Strabo 7.2.1-2, Florus 1.38.1, Plutarch.Marius 11.5-7, Justin.Epit 38.4.15, Velleius Paterculus 2.12.2, Caesar B.G 1.33.4 etc) and the archaeology are conclusive.

You forgot Tacitus and his famous translation by Thomas Gordon:

In the same winding tract of Germany live the Cimbrians, close to the ocean; a community now very small, but great in fame. Nay, of their ancient renown, many and extensive are the traces and monuments still remaining; even their entrenchments upon either shore, so vast in compass that from thence you may even now measure the greatness and numerous bands of that people, and assent to the account of an army so mighty.

Moreover the connection between the migrating Cimbri and a northern Jutland homeland is not quite as certain as commonly believed. For example the archaelogical record doesn't appear to provide clear evidence for a mass migration in the late second century. Whilst the safe money is to go with Poseidonius/Strabo and to accept the northern Jutland origins of the Cimbri it is also probably wise to recognise much about the history of this nation is lost to us forever

Then the map of Ptolemaeus and statements by Cassius, Martial, Herodotus and others must be pure fiction.

Damn I knew I couldn't trust those Roman historians. Just wasted six months on a fairy tale.

[bucellarii]

Please don't be offended. The above post was meant to be observational, not critical and I apologise if it came over otherwise

You are correct to point out I neglected to list Tacitus Germania 37.1, which is odd as a well-thumbed copy was on my desk as I typed the above

I was merely pointing out although Greek and Roman writers from the Augustan period onwards associate the migrating Cimbri of the second century with the people of the same name encountered by Germanicus Drusus, there remains an on-going debate amongst modern scholars (summarised in the Rives commentary on the Germania) about precisely how the men of this expedition determined the association, how reliable ancient sources are regarding the ethnogenesis of nations and how archaeology might provide vital clues.

I find these types of questions interesting because I'm not clever enough to think of them myself and as a result they help bring an added layer of interest to my own reading.

Oh, and you most certainly haven't wasted six months of your life. How can reading the ancients be called that

Anyway good luck with the Mod

Regards

buc

[Arnspac]

[quote=bucellarii;4246066]Nice preview

The Celto-Germanic debate about the Cimbri can never be definitely resolved, since neither the ancient sources (Posidonius F272, Strabo 7.2.1-2, Florus 1.38.1, Plutarch.Marius 11.5-7, Justin.Epit 38.4.15, Velleius Paterculus 2.12.2, Caesar B.G 1.33.4 etc) and the archaeology are conclusive.

Moreover the connection between the migrating Cimbri and a northern Jutland homeland is not quite as certain as commonly believed. For example the archaelogical record doesn't appear to provide clear evidence for a mass migration in the late second century. Whilst the safe money is to go with Poseidonius/Strabo and to accept the northern Jutland origins of the Cimbri it is also probably wise to recognise much about the history of this nation is lost to us forever

Please don't be offended. The above post was meant to be observational, not critical and I apologise if it came over otherwise

No offense taken.

From The Cimbri Chronology;

In Conclusion: The Cimbri, at least as far back as the latter part of the 2nd Century BC,
but with persuasive evidence for a much earlier date (6th Century), resided in what is
today Himmerland County, Jutland, Denmark. Some ultimately settled in the Vestfold
area of Southeast Norway and perhaps Hordaland. The writings of Classical Greek and
Roman authors make it clear despite their location in the Germanic north, they spoke a
Celtic language related to Gaulish P-Celt, originated in the Celtic lands between Gaul and
Moravia with prongs in Jutland as well as both sides of the Alps, and had a culture that
was overwhelmingly Celtic. Their Celtic affiliation lasted until some time between the
3rd and 6th Centuries AD when they lost their tribal identity subsequent to merging with
the Danes. Archaeological data confirms that their culture was Celtic, with some of the
most impressive Celtic finds in Europe coming from Himmerland. Genetic data points to
a prototypic La Tene Central European Y-chromosome DNA marker (S28-R1b1c10) as
being one key component of the genetic mix of the Cimbri. This marker links them to
their Central European kinfolk (e.g., in Switzerland and Northern Italy), and their Danish
and Norse Viking descendants in Eastern England, the Orkney Islands and elsewhere.

Again, it is recognized that the details above will need to be amended, as new
information becomes available, and sources must be added, but the major facts and most
of the conclusions appear to rest on solid ground.

Dr. David K. Faux January 2/08

The mystery continues.

[bucellarii]

Yes, I first came across Faux two or three years ago and must say I was quite impressed by the amount of work he had put into his original study on the Cimbri; of which the current paper is a revised and expanded version

Y-chromosome research is becoming increasingly common. In my own part of the world a collaborative study by The University of Nottingham, the University of Leicester and University College London has suggested the population in parts of northwest England carries up to 50 per cent male Norse origins. So its time to dust off the longship

Faux's work appears to be more of an independent project but is no less valid for being so.

Cheers

[Arnspac]

Yes I have taken great pleasure pushing the assumption that the Welsh are actually descended from 'The Cimbri' or 'Cymbri', much to the consternation of some.

Actually contacted Professor and author Antonio Santosuosso regarding this issue and received this reply just today;

Dear Mr. ----
The evidence on the Cimbri, like most things in that period, is
uncertain. What most scholars would agree on is that the Cimbri came
from the north and northeast, that at the beginning their operation
must have been just a migration for several reasons (poverty, climate
change, pressure from another ethnic group), but any advance into the
other territories meant inevitably also a military confrontation.
By the way I have followed up "Storming the Heavens" with "Barbarians,
Marauders, and Infidels...." which covers the period from the end of
the Roman Empire to the conquest of Costantinople by the Turks in 1450.
Best,
Antonio Santosuosso

[DominusEtDeus]

omg, its a joy to see such a great work...im w8ing keenly to install rs2 woaaaaaaa da best mod of rtw

[Buffalo72]

Great Mod

[Antiochus]

It is wonderful work! Amazing!
The best barbarians i have ever seen!!!!!

[Kane2008]

I just don't have the word's

[Elmetiacos]

Although they look similar, "Cymry" and "Cimbri" are not related words at all. Lots of people make this mistake. "Cymry" is derived from an older form *kom-broges or *kom-mroges meaning loosely "fellow countrymen" (compare the Gaulish tribe the Allomroges - their name means "the foreigners") The terminal suffixes (the -es bit) were lost, O became Y and G softened to a Y/I sound in the change from Brythonic to Welsh.

[Arnspac]

Could you run that by me again in kindergaerten language?
What you are referring to? I do not really understand the jist of this.

Since Cimbri is either pronounced 'Kimbree' or 'Kymbree' or 'Simbrahy / Simbri', depending on which expert you prefer.

cimbric

CIMBRIC, a. Pertaining to the Cimbri, the inhabitants of the modern Jutland, in Denmark, which was anciently called the Cimbric Chesonese. Hence the modern names, Cymru, Wales, Cambria; Cymro, a Welshman; Cymreig, Welsh, or the Welsh language; names indicating the Welsh to be a colony of the Cimbri or from the same stock.
CIMBRIC, n. The language of the Cimbri.

[Elmetiacos]

I don't see how it could be much simpler. At the time we are talking about, there was no such word as "Cymry". The similarity is just coincidence, as it is for the Cimmerians.