Kosovo's example and Impact on the World

[Exarch]

Is Kosovo's declaration of independance from Serbia legal or illegal?
why and why not?

And if it is legal, does that mean any other groups wishing independance should be allowed to secede?

[Nutsack]

legal, and yes.

[Reynolds]

legal because every group of people has the right to national self determination i would say

and i spose it does

[saglam2000]

legal because every group of people has the right to national self determination i would say

and i spose it does

everybody cept kurdistan

[Babur]

everybody cept kurdistan

lol why?

[nemgod]

Illegal due to Helsinki and other international laws of territorial integrity. The laws of self determination only counted colonies outside the nations boundries (Like some island in the caribbean from UK) NOT a small area inside the main nation breaking off for itself.

Impact just see for yourself. South Ossetia and Abkhazia both declared themselves indepentent after the Georgia attacks. Armenia and Azerbeijan could be next with certain areas of each others nations. It has lead to a more instable world. Even the Serb Republic in Bosnia has threatened to break away in response

[Carpathian Wolf]

Illegal due to Helsinki and other international laws of territorial integrity. The laws of self determination only counted colonies outside the nations boundries (Like some island in the caribbean from UK) NOT a small area inside the main nation breaking off for itself.

Impact just see for yourself. South Ossetia and Abkhazia both declared themselves indepentent after the Georgia attacks. Armenia and Azerbeijan could be next with certain areas of each others nations. It has lead to a more instable world. Even the Serb Republic in Bosnia has threatened to break away in response

And the Muslims in Bosnia threatened Republiska Sprksa with "if you try to break away we'll get America to bomb you again!" :hmmm:

Kosovo is illegal. It violates Helsinki and UN resolution 1244.

I am sorry, I mistook you for a reasonable person.

He's speaking out of anger and understandably so. What the Albanians have done to Serbs in Kosovo only since World War 2 is enough to drive anyone up a wall, if one was so informed. The Albanian ultra nationalism centered around the atlantian/illyrian mythos which was jump started at the 2nd League of Prizren coats every venue of Albanianism, their self proclaimed religion.

[Valiant Champion]

Highly illegal

[Revan The Great]

I believe that every people, region, conglomerate, and municipality has a right to secede from its sovereign land.

Likewise, I believe every sovereign land has the right to enforce its territorial and national integrity. If someone wants to secede, then they need to do it with more than a whim and some idealistic notion of freedom. Buy some guns, find the fighters amongst your people and then hope for the best.

Thats the way its been done for centuries, there's no reason to change it now.

[AqD]

I believe that every people, region, conglomerate, and municipality has a right to secede from its sovereign land.

Likewise, I believe every sovereign land has the right to enforce its territorial and national integrity.

No that's ridiculous. No one should have the right to claim the land of others, therefore a country, as a group of all its citzens, cannot claim any land from anyone.

[paokmam]

Is Kosovo's declaration of independance from Serbia legal or illegal?
why and why not?

And if it is legal, does that mean any other groups wishing independance should be allowed to secede?

It's illegal. Kosovo was a Serbian territory. The Albanians took advantage of the 90s war in Jugoslavia and slaughtered the Serbians that resided there. So, they changed the population.
Anyway, the problem is that this act of independence has opened the road for others to come. That is very bad because that means that our world is entering a 'changing borders' fase. And we all know how these things end... (2 world wars, holocaust etc.)

[Heathen Hammer]

It is illegal. Because you can't just take a chunk of territory from a country and proclaim it independent.

[fieldmarshal]

I don't know, maybe in strictly legal terms it is illegal, but then again, the majority of people who live in Kosovo, who are not Serbs don't want to be a part of Serbia. So i don't know how to solve that, i mean you cant force the majority to join something, and you cant force them to leave, unless by force. So if your forcing them to stay, i think it will degenerate into something like Israel-Palestine.

A lot of people say Kosovo is a part of Serbia?..is it?..i thought it was a part of Yugoslavia, so they had a right to leave. So someone needs to clarify this for me.

[Grof]

A lot of people say Kosovo is a part of Serbia?..is it?..i thought it was a part of Yugoslavia, so they had a right to leave. So someone needs to clarify this for me.

It was a part of Serbia long before Yugoslavia even existed. The 1st Serbian nation was called Raska and was formed right in the middle of what Kosovo would be today. And it was a part of Serbia ever since. We had every right to defend our land but we were prevented from doing so by people who have no understanding of the issue.

The declaration is illegal and everyone knows it.

[Barry Goldwater]

It is illegal, it's been part of Serbia for an age, even before Yugoslavia as others have mentioned (and even then, you don't just rip off a chunk of land from a sovereign nation)...and about others' right to independence, sure they can have it, if they can take it.
________
RUCKUS

[fieldmarshal]

The declaration is illegal and everyone knows it.

Yes, i can see how it is illegal in legal terms. But modern Kosovo's populace is predominantly ethnic Albanian, and they don't want to be a part of Serbia. And considering that most ethic Serbs have been ethnically cleansed, what is a viable solution?.

It is quiet clear that the ethnic Albanians do not want autonomy, they want independence, and they are the majority. In normal circumstances something like this would result in civil war, which actually happened, and the Serbs won at first, but with NATO intervention, the ethnic Albanians won, so in the end they emerged as the victors of the civil war.

I think it was wrong for NATO to play a heavy hand in their help of the ethnic albanians and biased completely against the Serbs. I think NATO's demand should have been to stop the killing, and not give up Kosovo since it was a part of Serbia. But sadly this is not the case, and the ethnic Albanians emerged victorious. But in either case, they won the civil war.

So shouldn't they rightfully get Kosovo since the won the Civil war? It is the case with any other nation, when a region wants to separate, and they do succeed forcefully, don't they have won the right to Independence? I mean when you look at it legally, no civil wars are legal, but they do happen, and the victor gets what they want, or if there is no clear winner, there is a compromise, But this case with NATO help, ethnic Albanians emerged as the clear victors, so shouldn't they get the right?

[Sphere]

Its hard to argue against any event in the ex-yugoslavia that doesn't result in mass graves.

Most of the breakaway yugoslavian nations are doing well, notably Slovenia and Croatia. Its hard to deny Kosovars that same oppurtunity when the vast majority of the populace wants it.

Perhaps in time a reunification can be possible, but as of right now, any Serbia assertion over the territory would lead to bloodshed.

[Grof]

Yes, i can see how it is illegal in legal terms. But modern Kosovo's populace is predominantly ethnic Albanian, and they don't want to be a part of Serbia. And considering that most ethic Serbs have been ethnically cleansed, what is a viable solution?.

It is quiet clear that the ethnic Albanians do not want autonomy, they want independence, and they are the majority. In normal circumstances something like this would result in civil war, which actually happened, and the Serbs won at first, but with NATO intervention, the ethnic Albanians won, so in the end they emerged as the victors of the civil war.

I think it was wrong for NATO to play a heavy hand in their help of the ethnic albanians and biased completely against the Serbs. I think NATO's demand should have been to stop the killing, and not give up Kosovo since it was a part of Serbia. But sadly this is not the case, and the ethnic Albanians emerged victorious. But in either case, they won the civil war.

So shouldn't they rightfully get Kosovo since the won the Civil war? It is the case with any other nation, when a region wants to separate, and they do succeed forcefully, don't they have won the right to Independence? I mean when you look at it legally, no civil wars are legal, but they do happen, and the victor gets what they want, or if there is no clear winner, there is a compromise, But this case with NATO help, ethnic Albanians emerged as the clear victors, so shouldn't they get the right?

They were all illegal citizens in Serbia. Majority of them came in after Tito opened the borders and let a huge number of them in. The solution is for them to go back to the country after they are named and the country that their flag looks like.
They didn't win any sort of war. They got help, if it was us against them (1 on 1) we know that they would be back in Albania where they belong.
You are just trying to spin around international laws which were clearly violated when the Albanians tried to declare their independence.

Perhaps in time a reunification can be possible, but as of right now, any Serbia assertion over the territory would lead to bloodshed.

And blood we spilled on that land to defend it. For thousands of years we gave up our lives to defend what is rightfully ours and we still do it today.

[fieldmarshal]

The solution would be, fieldmarshel, to keep Kosovo under Serbian control. If the Albanians of Kosovo want an Albanian country that much, they can treval a few miles to the south and reach Albania.

Yes but they chose not to, instead they decided to fight, and with NATO help won. So being the victors, shouldn't they rightfully keep what they won, or whatever NATO won for them. And since they have successfully cleansed Kosovo of Serbs, who has real claims other than the current residents, the ethnic Albanians?

You are just trying to spin around international laws which were clearly violated when the Albanians tried to declare their independence.

Please read my post, i never said it was legal. I said all civil wars are illegal, especially ones of succession, like this one. But civil wars happen regardless of weather it is legal, and the victor dictates the terms, so shouldn't the ethnic Albanians win the right through war?
I already said it was wrong for NATO to intervene like they did, but looking at the current situation in Kosovo, a region with predominantly Albanians, there is no going back to Serbia. Its not a issue of legality anymore, more of reality.

[Sunbird Alkibijad]

I don't know, maybe in strictly legal terms it is illegal, but then again, the majority of people who live in Kosovo, who are not Serbs don't want to be a part of Serbia. So i don't know how to solve that, i mean you cant force the majority to join something, and you cant force them to leave, unless by force. So if your forcing them to stay, i think it will degenerate into something like Israel-Palestine.

A lot of people say Kosovo is a part of Serbia?..is it?..i thought it was a part of Yugoslavia, so they had a right to leave. So someone needs to clarify this for me.

I won't go all the way thru this thread.
But to answer You. Look at history of balkans. Kosovo was the core region of the Serb medieval kingdoms(even empire at one point, or what you call TSARDOM-we call carstvo)...
Then, turks came along, Europe left Serbs and other nations in balkans to rot in total oppression, cultural, ethnic and religious. Bosnian muslims are the result of that. Also, Bosnian Catholics too(the ones claiming to be Croats...). They were originally Serb tribes.
What happened in kosovo, I think it was 17th century...One priest organized a mass exodus of people from kosovo(serbs). They moved north to Vojvodina and further west and north.
Thus the Serb population lost in numbers there, but it still remained the dominant population by numbers. So history rolled on...Finally there came balkan wars, where balkan countries fought for liberation from Turks, and they succeded. Serbia finaly got Kosovo under control. Now there were a lot of albanians, but Kosovo was still mainly populated by serbs. Ok, second balkan war was fought between bulgaria which wanted more and more...the others didn't like it, so bulgaria got smacked up badly.
First world war, bulgaria is ally of Austria and Germany, Serbia repells the Austrians for 2 years(unlike France, Russia and UK). Italians are there to fight for the winning side(whoever pays better). Finally, Serbian army has to withdraw, and so pulls some population running in terror from Austrian's and Bulgarians(they were bloodlusty, musta inherited that from turks).
And so came the WWII...YAY!
Italians invaded, germans invaded, bulgarians(oh god not again) too...
Btw, albania was created around this time by Italy, who didn't like the area being dominated by a strong country in balkans(serbia was powerhouse for a bried period). In a division of regions of Yugoslavia at that moment, Italy got Montenegro, Kosovo, part of Macedonia, and northern greece...

POOF, All of a sudden, there is a country called Great Albania, under guidance of Italy...(again, albanians also supported fascists). At this time,
Serbs are actively prosecuted and ethnically clensed from Kosovo, Albanians massively populate the area. By 1945, Kosovo is 50-50, or so.
After WWII is over, 1.7million Yugoslavian people are dead, great majority Serbs(Croats had their "Independent State of Croatia" because they accepted being puppets to Hitler, and had that beautiful concentration camp called "jasenovac"-one of the largest camps in WWII, god knows how many jews, serbs and other non-croats perished there).
Back to the topic. Albanians in Kosovo now don't have support from fascists, and Tito(yugoslavian president) is very good external politician, nobody messes with him. So they take up arms, start killing anything non-albanian and simply keep ignoring the fact they are not natives there.
After few years that movements simply slowed down and vanished, Kosovo was given a level of authonomy inside Serbia, NOT YUGOSLAVIA.
Mid 80's, they want more than authonomy(schools in albanian language, town and public stuff is in dual languages serb/albanian and so on)...
To counter that stupid idiot we all know, mister Milosevic takes the authonomy from them(tbh, i don't blame him). At this point, there were areas where police and army didn't go, simply coz they were shot on sight.
Now here comes a fun part in this story...
Albanian average family is usually with 5+children, not rarely that happens they got more than ten...The policy: the oldest stays in Kosovo, others go to western Europe, do all sorts of jobs(albanian mafia was/is probably the strongest mafia in europe-russian tremble with terror at mention of albanians). The money they make is sent to Kosovo to family/tribal leaders(yes they still act like that...). weapons are shipped from albania to Kosovo thru the mountains(impossible to control). 1998, albanians go to open revolt once again. In few weeks, Serb regular forces push their "liberation army" or whatever that bunch of criminals and terrorists is called in english out of Kosovo, or inside the caves and mountains. Unfortunatelu, paramilitary/criminals from serbia(not sanctioned from state) come into kosovo, and go behind regular army and loot, pillage and kill(nothing as it was propaganda on CNN and BBC). Then NATO comes in, starts wrecking civilian targets, bridges, power plants, railroads...WOOT DEMOCRACY FTW!
American dream, let's drop some cluster bombs, oh look, children's hospital, how many bombs it takes to level it?...And since ground troops needed to take cover, here come the heroic liberation army again...real freedom fighters...
Anyway...kumanovo agreement is signed(peace troops are to come to kosovo to oversee everything, serbia's territorial integrity guaranteed(oh really?)), and regular army and police are to return withing certain period inside kosovo...uh-oh...not gonna happen...that liberation army I mentioned before...they are now Kosova Protection forces or something...
In the meantime, serb population was reduced to less than 5-10% of total population in Kosovo...ethnic cleansing perhaps? Naaahh...it's like this:
I will buy your house and your land, for a decent price of, say, 20% of market value...or I kill you, your family and burn everything to the ground...Hmmm...let me choose...
And now we got "majority has the right to it's own national declaration" or whatever...wtf...
Again Mr.HillBilly, cough, cough, Mr.Bush and his ex-pet Mr.LapDog, cough cough, Mr.Blair...DEMOCRACY...

A few facts about Kosovo and Serbia:
800AD-1389AD, serb states, and other forms of government.
kosovo- largest concentration of Monasteries, Churches and other Orthodox religious buildings and institutions on European continent in a single area... I don;t remember the exact numbers, I'm sloppy with detailing.
Serbia has always sided against Axis and fascist. Croatia, Albania and Bulgaria have done the otherway(now croatian president is the loudest celebrator of the victory over facism day)...
1389AD, Kosovo battle...Serb army, under Duke Lazar, outnumbered by Turks several times over, gets utterly slaughtered, but brings down such huge number of Turks that turks don't proceed deeper into Europe for another 20 years or so...(excluding smaller expeditions, which turned out not so effective).

By 2004, there's not that many monasteries in Kosovo...But, now we got fresh new built Muslim Mosques...A special tribute from our belowed Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan...LOVELY!...
So now when I go to visit my relative that decided to stick in Kosovo despite the odds, instead of hearing bells from 3-4 churches in vicinity, I can hear that lovely bearded guy crying out over loudspeakers, sounding like he has had a real dry and greasy diet over last few months...And now he's paying for it...Albanians are not even proper muslims...they eat pork, they drink alcohol, and they are the biggest drug/human trafficers in Europe...
Welcome to the modern Kosovo...These are the only people that ever greeted Mr.Bush on his visit to "their" country...(in albania, they even stole his wristwatch, check youtube) NOW U SEE IT, NOW U DON'T!

So no, *ng NO. It's not legal! No flame or nothing, but please don't read Kosovo and Balkan history from Encarta and other British/German/U.S. based sources. Find facts. For example the moron that wrote for encarta spoke of mongol's joining forces with Serb army in that 1389AD battle...


Same goes for Bosnia(about ethnic cleansing). But it takes more than looking at CNN/BBC brainwash, so why should a 300pound republican voter somewhere in swamps of louisiana care that there is other sources of information on this planet...Right?
I hope I answered Your question.

EXARCH: U wouldn't happen to be from Louisiana by any chance?