Scottish

[hull19]

well... i proud of my clan even if it never did anything grand except supprot william wallace all the way...

[The Bruce]

@ Glam_Andy: Sorry for the late response but I have been busy doing anything else.

I have a friend from Glasgow who has one set of grandparents from the Carribean and the other from Italy. If you told him he was not a true Scot to his face he would most likely re-arrange yours.

At one time "Scots" referred to people from Ireland. This is patently no longer the case. A Scot, in the modern sense, is from Scotland. The term "Scotland" was actually invented by the English!

A true Scot need have no descent from the few Irish elite who established Dal Riata.

I am aware of this, I was just pointing it out in case anyone didn't know. So a 'true' scot is still someone from that original background heritage.

No a "true" Scot is someone from Scotland, or perhaps someone who is of Scottish descent. It could even be extended to someone who has lived in Scotland for a long period and has become "naturalised". I would not wish to impose my ethnographic definition on others but many Scots would be less inclusive than me.

However I disagree with your definition because you are using an archaic and ultimately erroneous meaning of the word "Scot" and claiming that this is the only "true" meaning.

You are saying that I am not a true Scot unless I am descended from a people that were labelled "Scots" by foreigners and who supposedly all came from Ireland which they did not.

Regardless of the veracity of the Irish invasion and subsequent migration to western Scotland it should be noted that no people called themselves "Scots" at any time prior to the use of English in Scotland.

The belief that the Scots of Dal Riata came from Ireland is strongly contested. There is no evidence of a mass migration in the archeological record and the oldest historical records are conflicting and were writtten centuries after the event. These "origin myths" probably have more to say about the politics of their period rather than the formation of Dal Riata. What is clear is that a ruling elite came to dominate lands on both sides of the Irish sea. Whether thay were of Irish origin is not relevant as such concepts are entirely modern.

The western Highlands and Islands together with the northern Irish coast were probably culturally contiguous for centuries if not millennia before the formation of Dal Riata. It is now believed that a Goidelic language was spoken in western Scotland long before 500AD and was not introduced by Irish migration to Dal Riata. Because one ruling elite came to dominate several areas for a short time and because these were called "Scots" by the English who would later extend the term to include all the people of Alba you claim that true Scots must be descended from the rulers of Dal Riata! This is nonsense.

A brief overview of the origins of Dal Riata can be found here. Campbell's views are by no means wholly accepted (yet) but most serious historians now dismiss the idea of a large scale Irish migration displacing the local population in Argyle. The "Scots" of Dal Riata were therefore not of Irish origin even though the ruling minority may have been.

A Gaelic speaker from Scotland learning English might reasonably ask what his nationality was called in this language: "You are a Scot" might be the reply, "Truly?", "Well no, because that's what we used to call the Irish". Right..

...do you presume I don't know enough about my own culture to not realise anyone who has Scottish blood in them will more than likely feel like a true 'Scot'.

Well, I presume you don't know enough to realise that it may be insulting to tell someone that although they may feel like a true Scot they may not actually be a true Scot because of what the English called the inhabitants of one area over 1,000 years ago. Your knowledge of Scottish culture may, understandably, have an Anglo-centric bias.

What makes you a "true inhabitant of Scotland"?

Oh, I'm sorry pal, did I say I was?! No. Big presumption there.

I was using "you" in the general case not referring to yourself specifically. I thought the context made this obvious but I apologise if not. What I meant was - What makes someone a "true inhabitant of Scotland" as opposed to a false one.

I will assume that you meant "original" inhabitants.

Also there is quite a LOT of evidence these days supporting the claim that the Picts may well have been in Scotland a LONG time before anyone has previously thought.

Such as?

Claims that the Picts were descended from the earliest Mesolithic or even Paleolithic settlers (i.e. more than other cultural groups) are tenuous at best. If the Picts were in fact descended from Neolithic scandinavian migrants that would make them relative newcomers compared to the predominant Iberian settlers of Britain. It is more likely that they were in fact a Brythonic tribe with ultimately Iberian and probably, some Scandinavian origins.

So, they are the true inhabitants of the area which is NOW Scotland, as much as anyone else is a true inhabitant of anywhere, which to be perfectly honest, is no one.

Oh, I see...

DNA proof is actually fallible you know.

Proof is never fallible by definition.

DNA evidence be may misinterpreted of course but the fact that continental Celts made no significant contributions to the genetic make-up of pre-Roman British populations is irrefutable. The idea that Celtic invasions replaced the indigenous population has been well and truly disproved. Rather the people of Britain adopted Celtic language and material culture with very little inward migration. Similarly an en mass replacement of post Romano populations in England by "Anglo Saxons" has been shown to be a vastly overstated by DNA studies.

Celts have also been proven to have existed in Germany and the north of Europe as much as they did in the South, they were a widespread culture afterall. It has also been suggested that originally the Celts came from Africa, which is not the case for EVERY single human being. It has been shown that it is MORE likely that the other sapiens not from Africa bred with the ones that were, but that the genes of the variant we know today as Homo Sapien are strongest from the African pool. At the end of the day, no one knows for sure. I read as much as I can about it and make up my own mind just like you.

The Celts were not a race. They are a group of peoples who shared a linguistic and material culture. What they had to do with the waning multiregional hypothesis of human evolution is beyond me.

My heritage is Scottish largely, but I was born in England. I still consider myself Scottish over English.

That's nice.

[hull19]

wow.. that is one heck of an answer, bruce!

cleared a few things ofr me

[calicheSCOT]

I'm Scottish, from the stock of Clan Shaw; the best cattle rustlers in the Highlands by historical accounts.

As a sociologist, I would say that to understand what makes someone Scottish (a vague term at best) phenomenology holds some useful theory's. It doesn't matter if your bright green and your parents were from mars, if you have been socially constructed through Scottish society then your a Scot. I think the Duke of Wellington was quite right when facing questions of his Irish heritage with the retort; "If I was born in a stable, would that make me a horse?" Just my two pence on the matter.

[The Bruce]

But if the Duke of Wellington had been born in a stable and socially constructed in horse society would he not therefore be a horse?

[calicheSCOT]

In fact a very interesting question, and indeed he may have had some horse like traits if that's the only society he was ever part of. Like the feral children we hear about being brought up by dogs. So maybe it isn't the best retort he could have come up with, but the man did have a odd sense of humour by accounts.

[A1_Unit]

In fact a very interesting question, and indeed he may have had some horse like traits if that's the only society he was ever part of. Like the feral children we hear about being brought up by dogs. So maybe it isn't the best retort he could have come up with, but the man did have a odd sense of humour by accounts.

ehm...(cough)

[Pilgrim9]

i hail from Ireland

we know the english were just jealous

[madrush]

my great grandfather is scottish, 71st highlanders (or some division) in WWI, blinded by mustard gas he was from clan macintosh (is father scot was and his mother was Irish ). Celtic/bosnian on my dads side and polish/russian on moms my whole name is Irish meaning "Sean son of Andrew"

[Maca]

Born and bred Scottish

Clan MacKay, but I have MacDonald blood in me as well. This helped my faction choice a lot

[McLeod17]

Im a half scot, form the McLeod Clan living in Argentina(bit far away, don't ye think?) guess it helps on my faction choice too

[Copperknickers II]

Funny, most people who think they are true Scots probably aren't.
Scots (as in the race the country is named after) originated in Ireland. The true inhabitants of what is now Scotland were the Picts.

Actually the Picts came from Ireland as well, just 1500 years earlier than the Scots.

I myself am a Cunningham, a lowland clan, our lands were directly above the Wallace lands and the original Bruce lands (which relocated mostly to above and around Edinburgh).

Indeed? I live in the old shire of Cunningham, not as spectacular as the highlands but every village round here dates back to the Dark ages, plus the battle of Largs (which expelled the Vikings from Western Scotland for the last time) was fought just over the hills from me.

[The Bruce]

Actually the Picts came from Ireland as well, just 1500 years earlier than the Scots.

Oh no, here we go go again.

The Picts came from Scotland. They were almost certainly predominantly descended (as were all Britons) from pre-Celtic Iberian settlers that populated the British Isles after the end of the last ice age. These people arrived via the west Atlantic route and whether or not they settled Scotland via Ireland is highly conjectural even if likely. However, their ancestors arrived in Scotland much earlier than a mere 1,500 years before the Scots came to rule Dal Riata.

[hull19]

by the way, doesn't Scotland mean: "The land of the Scot (or scots?)" and doesn't Scot mean "Irish man" ?

[The Bruce]

by the way, doesn't Scotland mean: "The land of the Scot (or scots?)" and doesn't Scot mean "Irish man" ?

I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave above.

[madrush]

jow bout we leave it as this irish are irish and scots are scots, and scots rule lol

[Maca]

Amen to that.