Imp II vs ExRM...

[morteduzionism]

Would someone who has played both mods explain the differences? I play Imp II...if that helps.

...Although noone ever seems to pay any attention, I have to ask again: please keep answers in simple terms.

I don't understand technospeak.

I don't know what things like "EDU" and those crazy "desc_" things are.

I don't know the meanings of 99.99% of the acronyms used in the forums.

I don't know what "mini-mods" do what, so saying something like '...added Gobbleygook's blah blah mod...' means nothing to me.

Here's what I know:

Imp II
-only able to play as Romans
-makes it harder by lowering Roman units stats and something with money
-uses 4 Turns-Per-Year (4TPY)
-Family Members can become Tribunis, Legates and Praetors (I don't know if that's part of 4TPY or another mod)
-Legio banners, Consular banners (I'm pretty sure that's part of a "mini mod" but )
-a different...this mod doesn't use "barracks"...I haven't played any other Total War game in years so I can't remember what they were like...
-probably a ton of other stuff that I'm forgetting

ExRM
-Absolutely nothing.
-I think it's based on Quintus Sertorius' Guide to Conduct Becoming A True Roman <---which is the dominant reason I'm interested in the mod. That guide was invaluable to me.

Here's what I think:

-ExRM seems to be modded to make it easier to play historically accurate? Yes? No? Maybe?
-ExRM and Imp II use various units to represent the alaes that were a part of a Roman army (Italian Principes (ExRM)/Alae Principe (Imp II)...
-ExRM did something with the traits system; I read a post (which I could hardly understand/follow) talking about "Superstitous"......I frickin' hate that trait! Along with "Downright Miserly"......ExRM did something to make them harder to come by

Here's what I want:

-I read a post just now that said ExRM did something that made it harder for the AI to spam stacks, something about changing unit costs I want that!
-If ExRM has found a way to get the AI to act even slightly better...I want that!
-If ExRM has found a way to modify Macedonia/Greece to make them more amicable...I want that!
-If ExRM offers a better trait system...I want that!
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

All things considered I'd really really like to keep Imp II. Seeing scenes from the Rome (HBO) series incorporated in the game is still cool to me. Not too long ago I happened to start a RTR: PE game just to remember what it looked like...I don't think I can go back to that...

If nothing else I'd like to know if there's a way to include some of the changes in ExRM...particularly if they deal with traits.

[marcvs agrippa]

the 4tpy script and the roman-leadership-mod (family members become tribunes, legates and praetors) are bundled.
ExRM uses this also.

-ExRM seems to be modded to make it easier to play historically accurate? Yes? No? Maybe?

(this is subjective) don't know if it was the one intention of the mod, but to me it is one of the most historically accurate. Because of the leadership system, because of its aor-system where you are only allowed to recruit certain troops in their defined areas of recruitment (aor), and because of epirus threatening rome in the first 10 years.

-ExRM and Imp II use various units to represent the alaes that were a part of a Roman army (Italian Principes (ExRM)/Alae Principe (Imp II)...

In ExRM you may only build "Italian" units at the point when you built provincial barracks. The guide you mentioned has a note about when you should do that... without provincial barracks you can only recruit units allowed by the aor (marsi, etrurian, samnite) in Italy.

-ExRM did something with the traits system; I read a post (which I could hardly understand/follow) talking about "Superstitous"......I frickin' hate that trait! Along with "Downright Miserly"......ExRM did something to make them harder to come by

There is a thread about the trait system, regarding a reduction in nthe speed of increasing traits like "superstition", but i guess it is not included in a release-version of the ExRM mod, yet.

-I read a post just now that said ExRM did something that made it harder for the AI to spam stacks, something about changing unit costs I want that!

yes, that is true. It applies foremost to mac and greece ai, but will not completely prevent the ai from spamming stacks. But the stacks are in fact lesser, but bigger than they are in RTRPE (playing on >medium campaign difficulty)

If nothing else I'd like to know if there's a way to include some of the changes in ExRM...particularly if they deal with traits.

hmm... you'll have at least get used to those crazy "desc_" things

[morteduzionism]

Thanks for the reply!

(this is subjective) don't know if it was the one intention of the mod, but to me it is one of the most historically accurate. Because of the leadership system, because of its aor-system where you are only allowed to recruit certain troops in their defined areas of recruitment (aor), and because of epirus threatening rome in the first 10 years.

This sounds like Imp II also: Leadership system - check. AoR System - check. Epirus/Pyrrhus - check.

In ExRM you may only build "Italian" units at the point when you built provincial barracks. The guide you mentioned has a note about when you should do that... without provincial barracks you can only recruit units allowed by the aor (marsi, etrurian, samnite) in Italy.

OK. In Imp II you can only recruit "Alae" units after building a "Campus" and even then you can only recruit them in certain cities but not all.

yes, that is true. It applies foremost to mac and greece ai, but will not completely prevent the ai from spamming stacks. But the stacks are in fact lesser, but bigger than they are in RTRPE (playing on >medium campaign difficulty)

:hmmm:

Save game compatible?

hmm... you'll have at least get used to those crazy "desc_" things

...is there an Idiot's Guide to Understanding Modding Traits

Two serious questions:

1. Are these types of changes to traits save-game compatible?

2. Where is the best place to start to understand how to change the trait system?

[marcvs agrippa]

Two serious questions:

1. Are these types of changes to traits save-game compatible?

2. Where is the best place to start to understand how to change the trait system?

1. I think so... I did quite a few changes to the EDCT file while in the midst of a campaign... but I guess this only applies to ExRM Savegames. Changing from ImpII to ExRM in a running campaign will surely cause havoc. But changing existing files in your current mod, should work for your curent savegames. (!assumption!)

2. In the TWC-University of course. Look around, get some cake, bring time and patience...

[morteduzionism]

2. In the TWC-University of course. Look around, get some cake, bring time and patience...

Thanks...for the reply...

I think I need to take the prerequisite before I take that class.

Before I begin creating my own traits I should get comfortable with editing the current ones.

A few questions:

-What is the recommended, in your opinion, threshold level to effectively prevent certain traits from advancing?

-Although I think I can figure out the answer to this I wanted to get your opinion anyway: Change the 'threshold' or change the 'effect?'

My initial problem is with the trait 'Downright Miserly' which gives +2 squalor; what do you think, change the 'threshold' to make it harder to reach or change the 'effect' to no longer give +2 squalor?

Based on your knowledge does one change have unforseen effects versus the other? Is one preferrable from a modding point-of-view?

-Lastly, which class would give information on changing the negative penalties for FM's spending time in a city that isn't constructing things? I think it's 'Administratively Inept.'

...That has to be the stupidest trait of them all! Being penalized for essentially being a governor!

[pannonian]

Thanks...for the reply...

I think I need to take the prerequisite before I take that class.

Before I begin creating my own traits I should get comfortable with editing the current ones.

A few questions:

-What is the recommended, in your opinion, threshold level to effectively prevent certain traits from advancing?

-Although I think I can figure out the answer to this I wanted to get your opinion anyway: Change the 'threshold' or change the 'effect?'

My initial problem is with the trait 'Downright Miserly' which gives +2 squalor; what do you think, change the 'threshold' to make it harder to reach or change the 'effect' to no longer give +2 squalor?

Based on your knowledge does one change have unforseen effects versus the other? Is one preferrable from a modding point-of-view?

-Lastly, which class would give information on changing the negative penalties for FM's spending time in a city that isn't constructing things? I think it's 'Administratively Inept.'

...That has to be the stupidest trait of them all! Being penalized for essentially being a governor!

Quinn experimented a lot with the traits, and ExRM was extensively play-tested, before arriving on the current balance. One of the main pluses ExRM has is that it's closer to RTRPE and is thus more accessible, and with a bigger popular base, it is also tested and adjusted more. That said, if there are certain aspects of ExRM that you like, it should be possible to port it over. The traits in particular should be portable in whole.

Traits don't usually have knock-on effects, other producing FMs that affect part of the economy. If you like how a trait is done in ExRM, just port it over. The only really complicated traits are the promotion ones, but AFAIK Imp shares the leadership mod anyway, so there's no need to change that.

If you look at the triggers for the negative traits, you'll find that the main triggers are an overabundant treasury, and staying in a city with a dodgy temple. The trading temples give the miserly trait and a host of others, the drinking temples turn your FM into a sot and debauchee, while the horse temples (which curiously include Nike) make your FM unable to command infantry. OTOH, farming temples make your FM into agriculturalists, while law and governor temples give some good governor traits (although not as good as the farming traits plus a good academy). Warrior temples curiously don't affect traits.

The superstitious trait had a malfunctioning trigger, so the check was taken out in later versions of ExRM.

Overall, if you want to learn modding, a good way to start would be to look at existing text files. Always remember to back them up before you start fiddling with them though, so you'll always have a working copy as backup in case your experiments go wrong.

[Tiberius Tosi]

One thing about ExRM, recruiting costs have been upped a lot (especially for "civilized" nations), so that you and the enemy can no longer have as large of armies (well you could have one huge one as opposed to two half stack or 3/4 stack ones I guess) and that way the enemy does not spam army after army after army. Debt is very commmon starting out so you have to make use of what troops gracious Quinn gives you to start with (which is plenty to conquer yourself out of debt) but money can still be hard to manage at times (on both ends, you have none and you have too much, and you can go from having tons to none in no time). I know these probably sound like bad things but they really help gameplay and make things much more challenging.

Oh yeah in ExRM you can play as every faction. Tehre are some added in ones from PE (sorry if I forget some), there Galatia, Briton, and Epirus (which really helped the Greek Cities stay alive better since they don't have to worry about southern Italy).

[morteduzionism]

Thanks for the help everyone...

The Hellenistic factions are much more well-developed now, with a more accurate phalanx recruitment system. They've also benefitted a great deal from our unit cost rebalancing. All-chrysaspide armies are a thing of the past in this mod, and don't even worry about too many hypaspistai popping up.

We've also made great strides against stack spamming. Unit costs are up between 100% and 150%, and upkeeps are all up 80-120%. You won't see many full stacks until late in the game.

Careful win condition and map editing have made several factions, particularly the Armenians and the Macedonians/Greeks, expand much more historically. It's now rare to see an Armenian foray into Parthian lands, although we haven't fully beaten that tendency down. And the Macs and Greeks, once they've finished squabbling over Greece, tend to expand into Asia Minor rather than Dacia.

This sounds interesting...

[HouseOfHam]

If you're going to pick one of the two, go with ExRM.

[Quinn Inuit]

Nah, we're not really the add images from movies types. The download's big enough already, and movies for 20 factions would be pretty substantial. Might be a cool add-on, though. I might do that after we're done modding the main game, but right now my priority is to focus on the units and map. (AI behavior can be radically altered by minor map changes.)

If you only want to play as Rome, Imp. II is certainly a good choice. They work really hard to optimize the experience of the human playing Rome.

The ExRM is fundamentally different. We've done a lot of work to make Rome a well-developed faction ("we" includes Candelarius, who created this mod), and I'm pleased with what we've been able to do. However, we haven't been able to be as thorough as the Imp. II people, since we've 19 other factions to work on. Rome still has the command system, the legion ancillaries, and four separate AsOR between the Greeks in the south and the Gauls in the north. But we've worked on a lot of the other factions, too.

The Hellenistic factions are much more well-developed now, with a more accurate phalanx recruitment system. They've also benefitted a great deal from our unit cost rebalancing. All-chrysaspide armies are a thing of the past in this mod, and don't even worry about too many hypaspistai popping up.

We've also made great strides against stack spamming. Unit costs are up between 100% and 150%, and upkeeps are all up 80-120%. You won't see many full stacks until late in the game.

Careful win condition and map editing have made several factions, particularly the Armenians and the Macedonians/Greeks, expand much more historically. It's now rare to see an Armenian foray into Parthian lands, although we haven't fully beaten that tendency down. And the Macs and Greeks, once they've finished squabbling over Greece, tend to expand into Asia Minor rather than Dacia.

Tactical AI is gradually improving. I've spent a lot of time trying to learn from Aradan and incorporate the best code into the tactical AI file. It's not perfect, but I think it's superior to Sinhuet's original file (at least the one we're using--it suffered from some minor misunderstandings about how unit formations could be set, and also didn't set the general back far enough).

The full changelog is included with every download. Check it out. It's massive, but we've tried to document everything as best as we can.

Oh, and yes, this mod was originally designed by Candel based on Quintus Sertorius's guide, which he then added to based on the mod and additional research (that's included in the docs, as well).