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Thread: Germans removed and New faction changes instead!

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    Icon14 Germans removed and New faction changes instead!

    As far as I understand, we will (hopefully) soon witness quite a few big changes on the XGMD map: (i) the map will be cut from the North (Britain and Scandinavia will disappear from the map), (ii) Germania will cease to exist as a faction, and (iii) Illyria is likely to take it’s place.

    Clearly, cutting map from North and having Illyria as a new faction will bring even more action to Mediterranean world. Interestingly, Illyricum is often an untouched territory by both AI and human player for quite a number of turns early in the game (I would dare say, this applies to XGM Illyricum as well). This means that, introduction of a (slowly growing) Illyrian faction should not bring such a strong disbalance in the region (at least early in the game), but will make mid/late game more interesting. From historical point of view, Illyria is a quite prominent independent kingdom, which at some point challenged the rising Rome (Illyrian wars, around 220BC), but lost it’s independence by ca. 165BC. Perhaps, these wars could be set up somehow. Btw, in XGM (Vanilla RTW ?) Romans have tendency to invade Illyria by Sea.

    The aim of this threat is to gather information / suggestions / ideas on this faction features and role. So, do not hesitate to comment/propose/suggest/demand .

    I’ve raided Wiki for information on Illyria and Illyrians. In my view, the following selection is a good starting point for discussing what Illyrian faction could be like and what it can bring in terms of game play.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Illyria was in Classical antiquity a region in the western part of today's Balkan Peninsula, inhabited by tribes of Illyrians, an ancient people who spoke the Illyrian Language. The delineation of ancient Illyria can pose a problem to historians, since before the Roman conquest the Illyrians were not unified into an Illyrian kingdom, and Illyria's borders before Rome are not always clear. For example, the Dalmatae, though classed as an Illyrian tribe by language, were only subject to the kingdom of Illyria for a short time and soon defected during the reign of King Gentius.

    Illyrians. The Illyrians formed several kingdoms in the central Balkans, and the first known Illyrian king was Bardyllis. Illyrian kingdoms were often at war with ancient Macedonia, and the Illyrian pirates were also a significant danger to neighbouring peoples. At the delta of Neretva, there was a strong Hellenistic influence on the Illyrian tribe of Daors. Their capital was Daorson located in Ošanići near Stolac in Herzegovina, which became the main center of classical Illyrian culture. The Illyrians even conquered Greek colonies on the Dalmatian islands. Queen Teuta of Issa was famous for having waged wars against the Romans. Ultimately, the Romans subdued the Illyrians during the 1st century BC.

    Illyrian Kingdom. After Alexander's death in 323 BC, independent Illyrian kingdoms again arose. In 312 BC, King Glaukias seized Epidamnus. By the end of the 3rd century BC, an Illyrian kingdom based in Scodra (now a city in Albania) controlled parts of northern Albania, Montenegro, Herzegovina under Queen Teuta, Illyrians attacked Roman merchant vessels plying the Adriatic Sea and gave Rome an excuse to invade the Balkans. In the Illyrian Wars of 229 BC and 219 BC, Rome overran the Illyrian settlements in the Neretva river valley and suppressed the piracy that had made the Adriatic unsafe. In 180 BC, the Dalmatians declared themselves independent of the Illyrian king Gentius, who kept his capital at Scodra. The Romans defeated Gentius, the last king of Illyria, at Scodra in 168 BC and captured him, bringing him to Rome in 165 BC. Four client-republics were set up, which were in fact ruled by Rome. Later, the region was directly governed by Rome and organized as a province, with Scodra as its capital.

    Religion. The Illyrian town of Rhizon (Risan, Montenegro) had its own protector called Medauras, depicted as carrying a lance and riding on horseback. Human sacrifice also played a role in the lives of the Illyrians. The most common type of burial among the Iron age Illyrians was tumulus or mound burial. The kin of the first tumuli was buried around that, and the higher the status of those in these burials the higher the mound. (so, guys were barbarians, after all )

    Other interesting links:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_warfare

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_(king)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburni


    First two maps refer to language groups, but are indicative in terms of influence on Illyrian tribes. The last two maps are self-explanatory.












    So, candidates for Illyrian settlements: Skodra (capital), Rizhon, Pharos (port). A few names of kings and one queen (whynot?!) could be found in spoiler.
    Possible fate of Illyrian faction (AI version): slow growth, conflict with (in more or less chronological order): Greek rebels/barbarian rebels, Celts, Epirus, Rome. In principle, AI Rome should get AI Illyria in the end and would nice to set up Illyrian Wars. Illyrians could start with a port or two and a decent fleet from very beginning to symbolize their naval/pirate traditions (Pharos) and, perhaps, compensate for weak “barbarian” in-land economy and poorly developed military infrastructure.

    RedFox indicated the possibility to bring in a new type of culture to reflect the complexity (helenic and/or celtic influence, for instance) and quasi-civilized (or pseudo-barbarian, if you like) nature of Illyrians and Thracians. I would welcome this feature wholeheartedly.

    So, speak up, people! A simple way to have good ideas is to start with a lot of ideas .

    P.S. I'm looking into a number of resources on candidates for Illyrian units and will come up with a list asap. But, feel free to speak up on this subject as well.
    Last edited by Stilgar CG; December 29, 2008 at 09:37 AM.

  2. #2
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Excellent way to start the discussion, M.E. Very good and detailed introduction. BUT, You do need to keep in mind the historical facts and the difference of the in-game balance. There will definitely need to be buffer states to keep the Illyrian capital safe and other touches. Quite a lot messing around and cheating with regions.. I'll try to come up with a map - 3/4 regions for them would be great.

    Something I have dug up:
    Last edited by RedFox; December 29, 2008 at 09:41 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    As I mentioned, my impression was that Illyricum is not blitzed by either human player or AI early in the game. So, hopefully, it will not be much trouble to get Illyria going for first 10-20 turns without affecting or being affected by other key factions.

    RedFox, unfortunately I cannot load the game right now to have a better look at the map, but I agree it would be necessary to create buffer zones and isolate Illyria for first turns.

    I am for historical accuracy, as long as it brings something new and exciting for the gameplay and, importantly, can be implemented well.
    Last edited by Stilgar CG; December 29, 2008 at 09:39 AM.

  4. #4
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Well, this is my quick go at a that part of the map, the regions around illyria have been modified quite a bit and you can notice Thrace gains a region too. It would be possible to give Illyria another region also - that way all those noble celtic factions have 4 regions..


  5. #5
    Athenogoras's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    My two cents. RTR-PE has Illyria as a faction. Basically twotier system. Cheap levys with high moral(spearmen,slingers and peltast) and expensive greek-influenced hoplite on higher barracks. They also start with big, experienced navy. I think in RTR culture is barbarian.

  6. #6
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Don't forget some good light cavalry, Illyria was famous for its raids on neighbors.

  7. #7
    LucretiusTC's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Firstly I would like to say that I wrote some basic temple descriptions for the possible new Illyrian Faction and they can be found here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...60#post4193260 With this temple system the Illyrians would have the same kind of structure than all the other Factions in the XGM.

    Secondly about those Illyrian units, I think we could emphasize those piracy and naval traditions of the Illyrians. They had those famous "Liburnian ships" (lembi): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians#Seafarers
    How about something like "Illyrian Pirates" (> light infantry unit, can skirmish) and "Illyrian Mariners" (> heavy infantry unit, bonus fighting cavalry, recruitable from Dockyards)? Maybe there should be some sort distinction between those coastal and highland units? Or perhaps some Pannonian units?

    Thirdly the imperial goals for the Illyrian Faction could be the domination of the Adriatic Sea including all the trade between Italy and Greece and the secure their northern and eastern frontiers against the Barbarians.

    Finally I think it would be good if there were 3 or 4 Illyrian cities at the beginning, but we have to figure out what would be the best combination for the gameplay (e.g. the distances of the settlements).

    Luc.

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    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    For the map Redfox posted above, I would suggest giving them Segestica but not Idimum, they need a buffer against Thrace/macedon.
    Also, how about giving them a province in Istria?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    I don't get it, why Illyria? It had almost no political organization, no serious impact on neighboring factions, and is hardly needed from a balance perspective -- isn't this exactly what a beefed up 'rebel' presence is meant to represent?



  10. #10

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    I don't get it, why Illyria? It had almost no political organization, no serious impact on neighboring factions, and is hardly needed from a balance perspective -- isn't this exactly what a beefed up 'rebel' presence is meant to represent?
    Cherryfunk, choice of Illyria was dictated by what it can offer in terms of XGMD game play, I guess. With another Mediterranean Sea-locked faction, XGMD will transform even more into a "fight cage" of the nations . Illyria will likely get an interesting unit roster to play, with helenic and celtic influence, but still inferior to Romans and civilized factions. So, it should be fun and challenge to rise over those big guys. So, it's basically about game play.

    Edit: From historical perspective, Illyria will represents those tribes that struggled for their independence and/or domination in the region, but never quite did it .
    Last edited by Stilgar CG; December 30, 2008 at 01:58 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Interestingly, Illyricum is often an untouched territory by both AI and human player for quite a number of turns early in the game
    That's because of the huge experienced rebel stack......

  12. #12

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    This is great stuff, Luc. The selection of temples is very nice indeed. I, personally, would go for domination of non-helenic gods, just for the sake of variety.

    I would also love to see piracy and naval domination reflected in a decent starting fleet. Cilician pirates-type unit would be a cool addition (and/or an Illyrian half naked and drunk aboardage crew with AP weapons and war cry ), to spice up the main Illyrian recruitment line.

    @ RedFox: I have in mind a new map of Illyricum, which would include a slight move of one settlement and addtion of 2 (possibly 3, optional) settlements. Does this sound as too much trouble? Would you consider renaming an existing settlement or two?

  13. #13
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    It would be cool if we could have both Syracuse and Illyria though... It's getting rather cramped there and I figure giving "Celtic Tribes" some special AOR capabilities would also do the trick?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Where are those extra factions slots, when you need them ... splitting GCS in 2-3 factions would be so cool, indeed

  15. #15
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Would be making things rather easier, don't you think? That way we can also expand the IGCS where needed etc.. It would be easier in the long run to just use Celtic Tribes and give them Illyrian AOR's

  16. #16

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Well, GCS offers very challenging game play, but it is spread all over the map. Therefore, unrest related to the distance from the capital, and even lower income and necessity to make sacrifices. Anyway, do you mean going for Syracuse or another Greek sub-faction?

  17. #17
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    I think we could turn germans into another greek faction - Independent Greek City States - unplayable.
    greek_cities would be turned into Greek City States - playable.
    Illyria will go to Celtic Tribes and handled via AOR's.
    Scythia remains untouched.
    The map will be cut from the north.

    We can have Provincial Campaigns for Syracuse and such.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    I think we could turn germans into another greek faction - Independent Greek City States - unplayable.
    This would be a great addition: (i) new and better options for balancing game play, (ii) fun to fight Greeks and not all sort of Rebel scum

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    greek_cities would be turned into Greek City States - playable.
    I thought GCS was a playable faction.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    Illyria will go to Celtic Tribes and handled via AOR's.
    Scythia remains untouched.
    The map will be cut from the north.

    We can have Provincial Campaigns for Syracuse and such.
    Sounds good. We could use some helenic units to fill the barracks of IGCS, and turn quite a few unit slots into AOR units. With only two barbarian (both Celtic factions) in central Europe, it would be important to add a large variety of AOR units (Germanic, Illyrian, Alps-specific units (as suggested by Zarax), Celtic etc.)

    I also can see that implementation of this scenario is less troublesome and seem to offer more.
    Last edited by Stilgar CG; December 30, 2008 at 01:57 AM.

  19. #19
    rogergargantua's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Germans removed and New faction changes instead!

    How many factions slots are there in R:TW and how many did you use, RedFox?

    btw, I havent checked forum in a while....so reading all these great new ideas is awesome

  20. #20
    Legio's Avatar EMPRESS OF ALL THINGS
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Illyria. Features and unit roster discussions.

    How about you do it like 77BC? Have two Celts- the Celts(Celtic) and Celts(Getae). That fills up the whole world nicely.

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