Might be useful for those without BI...

[Zarax]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188651

Apparently it's a pretty good fix for hoplites and close order infantry...

[Athenogoras]

I think DBH already has done this for some units.(for example Ethiopian axemen, thracian peltasts, bastarae). I think he gave them a value of 0.5.
If we give the hoplites such a low value as suggested in link(0.2) they will be overpowered. This makes them fight very close and are almost impossible to hit. All I say is that it would take some careful testing.

[Zarax]

Well, I think this is pretty much what the shield wall formation does in BI anyway...

[htismaqe]

For those of us using Alex (and the poor souls still using RTW), this appears to be HUGE. This would dramatically improve the effectiveness of hoplites that are neutered without BI.

[DimeBagHo]

IIRC I used 0.5 for all two handed units. Using a radius of 0.2 without adjusting other stats would make Hoplites extremely powerful, but it might be worth testing to see if a reasonable balance can be achieved.

[htismaqe]

I don't want them to be overpowered, but right now they suck. There's zero reason to spend two turns building Greek Hoplites (for instance) because all they're good at is dying.

[Scutarii]

I don't want them to be overpowered, but right now they suck. There's zero reason to spend two turns building Greek Hoplites (for instance) because all they're good at is dying.

I find they're useful as line holders with Guard Mode on. Guard mode is a must for all spear-wielding line infantry, otherwise they just get slaughtered by swordwielding troops (particularly the triple chevron principes/hastati Rome is churning out in my Carthage campaign while I'm just building my first blacksmith. )

[RedFox]

As far as I know, the default for all units is 0.3 and the value isn't used in the vanilla EDU.

soldier greek_hoplite_greek, 50, 0, 1.14, 0.3

Some people misinterpreted this as the formation spacing value though, but it's clearly not the same thing. I think it would be worthwhile to compare units with equal stats, with only the difference in unit radius. It would be also wise to test this with pikemen..

Edit: I ran a test and it seems to give a decent advantage over the enemy. For Hoplite units, I suggest either lowering the attack factor by 1, or lowering defense by 1. (This test was on xgmD though, different stat dynamics..)

[htismaqe]

If you have to lower their attack, so be it. Like I said, right now all they do is die. They're not good for anything else.

[RedFox]

Well, this only improves their offensive capability, not their defensive capabilities. The problem with XGM always was soldiers dying too fast. I'd suggest - 1/2 attack and + 2/3 defense skill.

[Spartan198]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188651

Apparently it's a pretty good fix for hoplites and close order infantry...

I have been looking for that topic for months!!!

Thank you, Z!

[htismaqe]

DBH,

I think this is something we need to look at implementing. Take a look at post #13 in this thread:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=215708

[Scutarii]

Shieldwall in Alex? I'm confused...

[htismaqe]

Shieldwall in Alex?

No.

Just a demonstration of how strikingly different the effectiveness of hoplites is with BI vs. Alex.

The idea was that 3 units of Levy Hoplites should be able to surround and break 1 unit of Agema Hypaspists.

In BI, they did so HANDILY, because of shield wall.

In Alex, not only did they not break the AH, they LOST.

Hoplites + Alex = suckage.

[RedFox]

Scutarii: No, it's a way to get similar result of the shield wall in ALEX, without the actual special formation. It's just the way the troops behave if you lower their radius - giving them a bonus against enemy troops.

In a few tests, it was clear that the advantage is purely due to battlefield dynamics >> because the troops in one unit are very closely packed, one enemy soldier has to face at least 2 soldiers.
This gives a major advantage to the unit and makes it much deadlier. This is also what happens with the shield wall special formation.

[Scutarii]

Ah, all is clear now. I was looking at just post 13 and had no idea what I was looking at. Reading through the thread I understand better. Guess I'm up too early...

[htismaqe]

Bump for DBH.

[htismaqe]

Another bump for DBH.

[Athenogoras]

After some testing I think this is a good idea. Especially the merc/aor hoplites need a boost. Perhaps a bit mechanical but I would like them to(one on one):
- barely win against hastati
- loose against principes
-loose against medium phalanx.
- be excellent from the front and lousy when enveloped.
- fight in tight order.
- I dont want to change their autocalc-strenth too much.

As it is now they lose horribly to all my examples.
If we want them to fight close there is no alternative to the setting 0.2.
I would lower their defence skill and increase their shieldvalue. This way they would be more be less efficient when surrounded and the added shieldvalue would represent the overlapping shields. As far as I know autocalc-strenght wouldnt differ much.

Original XGM

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type merc greek hoplites
dictionary merc_greek_hoplites ; Mercenary / AOR Hoplites
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier greek_hoplite_achaean, 50, 0, 2.8
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 5, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0
stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 900, 450, 60, 120, 900
ownership barbarian, carthaginian, eastern, egyptian, greek, roman, slave

Proposed adjustments

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type merc greek hoplites
dictionary merc_greek_hoplites ; Mercenary / AOR Hoplites
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier greek_hoplite_achaean, 50, 0, 2.8, 0.2
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 3, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0
stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 900, 450, 60, 120, 900
ownership barbarian, carthaginian, eastern, egyptian, greek, roman, slave

This solution is for aor hoplites only. Sacred band with 0.2 and proposed solution would be overpowered.

[Athenogoras]

After more testing I propose this solution. The idea is to tie the attack to the mass of the unit and the cohesion to the overall training. Classic greek hoplites get tighter formation and slightly better attack and are more vulnerable to envelopment. Libyans and Celtic hoplites fight less tight and are better when enveloped. Special case being the civic hoplites of Carthage. I gave them same cohesion as Libyans. Their EDU-entry says well trained and it would give the player an opportunity to build a good citizenarmy(attack and defense skill though lowered 2 points vis a vis libyans)

Overall defences is lowered for the hightier hoplites. And overall attack is higher. I saw no other sollution and i didnt want to manipulate the timedelay and the killratio of the attacks.

The libyans,civics and celtic hoplites get 2 higher defence skill, 1 lower shieldvalue and 1 lower attack skill.

Perioiki get 1 higher attack and defence skill than AOR hoplites.(making them beat aor hoplites)


Spartan hoplites

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type greek hoplite spartan
dictionary greek_hoplite_spartan ; Spartan Hoplites/Royal Guard
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier greek_spartan_hoplite, 50, 0, 3.2, 0.18
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 4, 7, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0
stat_mental 30, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 30, 8000, 520, 90, 130, 2400
ownership greek_cities, romans_brutii

Greek Sacred Band

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type greek sacred band
dictionary greek_sacred_band ; Sacred Band
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier greek_sacred_band, 50, 0, 3.2, 0.18
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 4, 7, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0
stat_mental 30, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 1200, 600, 90, 180, 1200
ownership greek_cities, romans_brutii

Carthaginian Sacred Band/Basilikon guard

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type carthaginian sacred band
dictionary carthaginian_sacred_band ; Sacred Band
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier carthage_sacred_band, 50, 0, 3.2, 0.18
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 3, 7, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground -2, 1, -4, -1
stat_mental 30, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1200, 600, 90, 180, 1200
ownership carthaginian

Perioiki Hoplites(spartan)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type greek hoplite spartan perioici
dictionary greek_hoplite_spartan_perioici ; Spartan Hoplites/Perioici
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier greek_spartan_hoplite, 50, 0, 2.8, 0.18
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 3, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0
stat_mental 14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 1000, 500, 75, 150, 1000
ownership greek_cities, romans_brutii, slave

Athenian/Syracuse/Bactrian Elite Hoplites

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type greek athenian hoplites
dictionary greek_athenian_hoplites ; Athenian Hoplites
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier greek_hoplite_phrygian, 50, 0, 3.2, 0.18
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 2, 7, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 1000, 500, 75, 150, 1000
ownership greek_cities, romans_brutii

AOR/Allied/Bactrian Hoplites

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type merc greek hoplites
dictionary merc_greek_hoplites ; Mercenary / AOR Hoplites
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier greek_hoplite_achaean, 50, 0, 2.8, 0.18
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 2, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0 (Bactrian -2, 1, -4, -1)
stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 900, 450, 60, 120, 900
ownership barbarian, carthaginian, eastern, egyptian, greek, roman, slave

Celtic Hoplites

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type greek celtic hoplites
dictionary greek_celtic_hoplites ; Mercenary / AOR Hoplites
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier greek_hoplite_celtic, 50, 0, 2.8, 0.2
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 4, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, -1, -4, 1
stat_mental 12, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 900, 450, 60, 120, 900
ownership barbarian, carthaginian, eastern, egyptian, greek, roman, slave

Libyan Spearmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type libyan heavy infantry
dictionary libyan_heavy_infantry ; Libyan Spearmen
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier carthaginian_heavy_infantry, 50, 0, 2.8, 0.2
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 4, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, 1, -4, -1
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 800, 400, 60, 120, 800
ownership carthaginian

Civic Infantry

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type carthaginian heavy infantry
dictionary carthaginian_heavy_infantry ; Civic Infantry
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier carthaginian_heavy_infantry, 50, 0, 2.8, 0.2
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.8 ; Hoplite
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1.0 ; no weapon
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 2, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground -2, 1, -4, -1
stat_mental 6, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 800, 400, 60, 120, 800
ownership carthaginian

Edit1:
Some suggestions about stat_ground and the stat_heat values. For the stat_heat I would suggest making it non-culture specific and instead based on armour. For the hoplites varying between 3 and 4. Spartan bodyguard gets 2 for its uberness.(see values within spoilers)
May I also propose to harmonize the stat_ground. I would like to see the same settings as for phalanxes with small cultural variance(mostly for flavour)
That is:
Greek Hoplites
stat_ground -2, 0, -4, 0

Carthaginian/Ptolly/Bactrian Hoplites
stat_ground -2, 1, -4, -1

Celtic Hoplites
stat_ground -2, -1, -4, 1

Edit2
Even if hoplites were extremely good on the walls due to their high mass they are even better with these radius-settings. It is the only drawback I see to these new settings.

Edit3
Gave all hoplites same charging-distance of 30.