why welfare?

[Bwaho]

it could be I've become an egomaniac, but I'm getting more and more opposed to welfare and other social hand outs.

it wasn't always like this though. I didn't really mind when I was studying, but after working some time now my views have changed a bit.

i worked really hard, long shifts for long periods of time and when you're there breaking your back you can't help but feel you want more reward for your hard work. I've had work mates that are lazy slobs who get paid equal to me, but leech off of me and others who have a strong working mentality.

reading about immigrants who live on welfare (my money) and don't work a single day in their life is like having someone spit in your face, and it surely doesn't help quench my frustration.


so why should we pay other people to sit on their butts? is that fair?

have I just lost sight in this evil capitalistic society or am I on to something?

discuss!

[Aetius]

No, you are correct. Welfare reform is necessary.

It should only be given to people who cannot work. (Disabled, insane, etc) and their should be a limited 3-month or so period of welfare anyone can take after losing a job.


I work near a welfare office. The people you see collecting welfare makes me very angry. They have no shame, I would be ashamed to collect welfare.

[Comrade Chad]

Welfare is a good thing if used for those who can't work like the disabled. The problem with welfare is that once expanded beyond those who can't work it just becomes a way of life for people. Reform is certainly needed, but it will be hard since people have gotten used to it. It will take quite a bit of political backbone to reform, and I just don't see politicians being able to do it.

To sum up my opinion on welfare....A good thing that can very easily be turned into a horrible thing.

[Aetius]

A guy walked into the local welfare office to pick up his check. He marched straight up to the counter and said, "Hi. You know, I just HATE drawing welfare. I'd really rather have a job."

The social worker behind the counter said, "Your timing is excellent". We just got a job opening from a very wealthy old man who wants a chauffeur and bodyguard for his beautiful daughter. You'll have to drive around in his Mercedes, and he'll supply all of your clothes.

Because of the long hours, meals will be provided. You'll be expected to escort the daughter on her overseas holiday trips and you will have to satisfy her sexual urges.

You'll be provided a two-bedroom apartment above the garage. The salary is $200,000 a year.

"The guy, wide-eyed, said, "You're tin' me!

"The social worker said," Yeah, well . . You started it."

Lol

[dragonsign]

Welafe is in my opinion a good thing.

yes it is abused and will probably always be, but name me country without corruption. Welfare creates a social fundation that rescues many from poverty/death(on a random street corner)

If you work hard, be a proud proletar. Don't let others lazyness blind you. Many Immigrants actually works hard, Last week a statistic was realeased here in Norway wich showed that the immigrants total contribution true taxes are larger than what they claim in welfare. A problem in many countries is that immigrants works under slave like conditions(illegaly).

I work near a welfare office. The people you see collecting welfare makes me very angry. They have no shame, I would be ashamed to collect welfare.

Most people that collect their welfae money feel shame everytime they do so.

[Xan]

Yes welfare reform is needed so that people who are abusing the system do not get money.
But at the same time welfare is needed, i believe a society have a responsibility to help the people who are unable to work or that are for periods of time uabel to get work.

If not then we would have starving and really dirt poor people and that would just cause more crime.

[Bwaho]

If you work hard, be a proud proletar. Don't let others lazyness blind you

see to my ears that says "keep being a fool and give away the fruits of your labor to some douche who didn't help".


don't get me wrong I'm not a cold person, I want people to help each other, but I'm wondering if welfare is really the way to go.

Most people that collect their welfae money feel shame everytime they do so.

well we can only speculate about that

i believe a society have a responsibility to help the people who are unable to work or that are for periods of time uabel to get work.

I don't think a society has that responsibility... it's just one way to do it.

If not then we would have starving and really dirt poor people and that would just cause more crime.

a bit of a stretch don't you think? many people can survive without getting handouts

[nemgod]

Actually although I have been pro welfare the past few months have put me even more in favour of it. Right now where I live businesses are collapsing all around.

This actually started before the credit crunch during some of the better times in the economy but now more stores and factories have closed down with many people losing work. Adding that Woolworths is closing down and it was the store that kept the town together, without it people just will no longer go into town and the others will follow.

This will lead to higher than normal unemployment and where I live it is already high. Due to the lack of employment opportunities many in my area NEED welfare now more than ever to actually be able to live.

[Viking Prince]

Society does indeed have a responsibility. We were once an agricultural based economy prior to the industrial revolution.

A rural economy supports the Malthusian problem of numbers of people and marginal land which meant that too many people would simply degrade the wealth of all. To a degree, this is why we have inheritance that is oldest man oriented.

Once the industrial revolution -- the shift is now to towns and cities. People cannot simply leave the urban areas and begin again with a rural existence -- they would need title to property and the skills to perfor subsistence farming. Even the modernizing Mexican economy has no more room for subsistence farming.

The urbanized nature of our modern economy simply requires some form of welfare to help not just those who are unable to work, but also help those with inadaquate incomes from productive labor and as a form of inemployment insurance for those unable to find work.

Another aspect of welfare well now become a part of the modern economy as the work force ages and we live loner productive lives. Retraining and also better enforcement of rules to hire older members of the workforce will be needed. The need for unemployment insurance due simply to age will increase.

[Bovril]

Without welfare modern corporate capitalism would collapse. The 'conservative' ideal of a fuedal family and employment structure in a corporate capitalist economy is absurd. Remove welfare and you'll get something like either contemporary South Africa or 1917 Russia. As a socialist I dislike welfare, but if I was a corporate capitalist idealogue, I'd have the good sense to (secretely) love it.

[Sphere]

Capitalism may be efficient, but it creates winners and losers. If you aren't willing to invest in a social safety net for the losers, you put the foundations of society at risk. Welfare has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with stability. You don't want a large portion of the population with nothing to lose a la 1848, 1889, 1917, 1968 etc.

[Gungalley]

Without welfare modern corporate capitalism would collapse. The 'conservative' ideal of a fuedal family and employment structure in a corporate capitalist economy is absurd. Remove welfare and you'll get something like either contemporary South Africa or 1917 Russia. As a socialist I dislike welfare, but if I was a corporate capitalist idealogue, I'd have the good sense to (secretely) love it.

Please educate me on why a socialist will hate welfare.

To the OP: I work hard too. Im from a middle income family, I study really hard to do relatively well. But it really annoys me that some rich kids don't have to work half as hard as me to get to where I am now. THey get to great universities or jobs just from their dad's connections or money. They get their own personal car to drive around and impress chicks. THey get credit cards and only designer labels seem to touch their skin. ANd these people are likely to have an easy life as compared to the lower and middle class, no?

My views on welfare: of course, welfare should be tightly regulated. No matter what system you have, there are bound to be wastages. Theres just no time or resource to do everything on a case by case basis. The best you can do is try to minimise such wastages. Welfare is needed to break the cycle of poverty, give people a 2nd chance etc... Of course, welfare is not the only determinant in breaking the cycle of poverty, but it goes a long way. You do not want kids to quit school to support their family, do you?

[Watchman]

Please educate me on why a socialist will hate welfare.

Socialists - the moderate-reformist types - don't; they're the folks who most ardently campaigned for such policies after all. Revolutionary Communists, the radical-militant wing, on the other hand indeed did hate it with a passion (and they weren't fond of the moderate Left either, by the same token) - since the whole point thereof is to better the lot of the disenfranchised underclass, which helps reduce their discontent and duly makes the Revolution that much less likely to happen since the major motivation has been done away with.

Which is why you back in the day had such ardent Marxists as Otto von Bismarck pursuing quasi-welfare reforms, protective labour legislation etc.

Bovril kind of fails history there.

[eisenkopf]

Which is why you back in the day had such ardent Marxists as Otto von Bismarck pursuing quasi-welfare reforms, protective labour legislation etc.

Very good point indeed.

[AqD]

-- deleted --

[Darsh]

Welfare is needed to keep the social peace.

[dogukan]

I believe it should be limited. At least it should require more documents....

[Dromikaites]

Welfare is just a type of insurance (in the Romanian language it is even called like that - "social insurance"). It serves several purposes among which I see two very important ones:
- it protects hard working individuals from the more severe effects of the economic downturns;
- it protects the middle and upper classes from social unrest and communist-type revolutions.

Like in the case of any other type of insurance, welfare can be subject to insurance fraud. The solution is of course preventing and fighting the fraud, not eliminating the insurance. How wise would it be to eliminate the insurance policies?

[Hesus de bodemloze]

it could be I've become an egomaniac, but I'm getting more and more opposed to welfare and other social hand outs.

It' s becous you evolve in society you see other people do the same work as you, only to get the same reward as the once that didn' t do there best. This will get frustrating eventually.

it wasn't always like this though. I didn't really mind when I was studying, but after working some time now my views have changed a bit.

When you start your life as a working member of society you will get more respect for money becous now you know how hard you have to work for the small amount on your paycheck. When people go to school thy don' t have to worry about money becous in most cases the parents will pay for it.

i worked really hard, long shifts for long periods of time and when you're there breaking your back you can't help but feel you want more reward for your hard work. I've had work mates that are lazy slobs who get paid equal to me, but leech off of me and others who have a strong working mentality.

It' s all in your nature some of us are hard workers and others arn' t, there is nothing you can do aboed.

so why should we pay other people to sit on their butts? is that fair?

Not all pleople are lazy and don' t want to work, in some area' s of you country isn' t enough work for every one. These people can' t help it if thy life of welfare. We all need to eat. If you get fired and don' t get a new job soon you will get dependent on welfare as well.

have I just lost sight in this evil capitalistic society or am I on to something?

I think you just lost sight. Don' t worry to much about this.

[Musthavename]

reading about immigrants who live on welfare (my money) and don't work a single day in their life is like having someone spit in your face, and it surely doesn't help quench my frustration.

That's the flaw that has to be stopped. Welfare is nescessary for a multitude of other reasons. What if someone cares for a family member and cannot work at the same time? What if someone became disabled to an extent they could no longer work? What if someone is looking for work and cannot find it because of the recesssion? These people need benefits!

What the system needs to stop are people who are claiming jobseekers allowance, while not actually bothering to look for a job (and I don't know what its like where you are, but over here it's mostly just lazy folks, not "immigrants" in general. Other than that, its necessary to have a welfare system.