The American America

[Bwaho]

how America would be if many traditional American ideals and values were in place.


No welfare

No socialized health care

Hardly any tax, only to fund the most vital things like the army and government. No income tax.

America to be mainly populated by Anglo-Saxons instead of the lesser "swarthy" europeans such as germans, french, italians etc (these were Benjamin Franklin's wishes)

No military intervention in wars being fought by other nations (isolationism)

More freedom and control for states




I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with these policies I am merely pointing out how I think the "ideal" America would be. Ideal according to a wide variety of sources such as prominent american figures and different writings.

[Dr. Croccer]

That ''ideal'' America would lose 80% of it's population, a huge swathe of it's income and most likely desintigrate in little states, like the Holy Roman Empire.

[Ragabash]

Moved to Political Academy.

[Last Roman]

out of curiosity, who/what are these prominent american figures? american ideals have changed greatly, even early on. I, for one, think you water this down waaaay too much. Also, I disagree with the title. I'm an American, yet dont agree with much of what you posted above. Are you saying that since I disagree, I'm not an American? Nationality is not controlled by ideals.

[Rush Limbaugh]

America to be mainly populated by Anglo-Saxons instead of the lesser "swarthy" europeans such as germans, french, italians etc (these were Benjamin Franklin's wishes)

Other than this I agree with most of your post. If you limit that to Franklin and some of his supporters Ill give a nod to the whole thing. The King of England was a German was he not at the time? Unless Im wrong and the House of Hanover has always been English

[Cluny the Scourge]

Ideal for the upper middle-classes, perhaps. A nightmarish vision indeed.

[Last Roman]

It is odd that Franklin puts Germans in the "swarthy" category, nor has much of a stomach for anyone but people of English stock (though interestingly enough, he said that "Reds" were lovely, if he actually meant Indians I don't know) While many saw southern Europeans as "lower" I wonder why he has such a low opinion of fellow western and northern Europeans.

[Bwaho]

I, for one, think you water this down waaaay too much.

of course, it's more fun that way.

Also, I disagree with the title. I'm an American, yet dont agree with much of what you posted above. Are you saying that since I disagree, I'm not an American?

not saying that. I've just been reading a lot about the "old" America and this thread was to sort of sum up what I've been reading.

If you limit that to Franklin and some of his supporters Ill give a nod to the whole thing. The King of England was a German was he not at the time? Unless Im wrong and the House of Hanover has always been English

well it's not only that, but a lot of the founding fathers and the early important figures had strange ideas. Yet today many blindly show a lot of admiration for them and give them a god-like status. It's best just to think of them as educated people who had some interesting ideas and some crazy ones.

Ideal for the upper middle-classes, perhaps. A nightmarish vision indeed.

aren't you upper middle class?

[Dr. Croccer]

It is odd that Franklin puts Germans in the "swarthy" category, nor has much of a stomach for anyone but people of English stock (though interestingly enough, he said that "Reds" were lovely, if he actually meant Indians I don't know) While many saw southern Europeans as "lower" I wonder why he has such a low opinion of fellow western and northern Europeans.

Germans were, back then, regarded as the scum of the earth because they were one of the biggest immigrant groups back then. Though regarding them as inferior is stupid, as they were one of the biggest groups in the US then. They formed, what, 50% of the population by the late 18th century, and the remaining half wasn't entirely WASP either.

[Last Roman]

Germans were, back then, regarded as the scum of the earth because they were one of the biggest immigrant groups back then. Though regarding them as inferior is stupid, as they were one of the biggest groups in the US then. They formed, what, 50% of the population by the late 18th century, and the remaining half wasn't entirely WASP either.

IRRC, people of German descent still make up the largest segment of the US population.

[Thorn777]

Germans were, back then, regarded as the scum of the earth because they were one of the biggest immigrant groups back then. Though regarding them as inferior is stupid, as they were one of the biggest groups in the US then. They formed, what, 50% of the population by the late 18th century, and the remaining half wasn't entirely WASP either.

Come on doc, I know how the Dutch like to vieuw Germans because of ww2, and often generalize the intire German history as warlike, dispicable or unimportant, but Dutch vieuws dont count here.
The German immigrants came mainly after the France-Prussian wars of +-1850, because they where sick of war and believed in the romantized vieuws of a better life in "America". So they came rather late, but picked up quicklly as they where often highly skilled craftsmen, farmers and traders, but then the civil-war came up and many refused to serve one side(espescially the southern side), becuase they fled from war to live piecefully and not to go at war again. They also where very respected by severall Indian tribes unlike others for different reasons. All this resolved in Germans being pretty much hated in confedarated America, often hunted and scalped like Indians, but in the north they where overall very respected early on.
With the later WW´s comming much changed and Germans had to indeed fear hostility for being asumed spies and nazi´s, just as the Japanese btw, but they where never vieuwed (quote) "inferior" or "stupid", thats laughable espescially when you consider Germany whas often intellectually and cultural idolized by many Americans for a long period of time.

[Pontifex Maximus]

No welfare

That would be nice, and I agree.

Hardly any tax, only to fund the most vital things like the army and government. No income tax.

That's true, but we tried that and failed. As a result we have higher taxes.

America to be mainly populated by Anglo-Saxons instead of the lesser "swarthy" europeans such as germans, french, italians etc (these were Benjamin Franklin's wishes)

The immigration would have been hard to stifle, and while if the original anglos had been keen enough to make laws keeping these swarthy gents out of the country, they wouldn't have benefited from the cheap labor sources they provided as well as fodder in the Civil War.

I think as time wore on many early Americans stopped thinking of themselves as British citizens and adopted the American identity which allowed for more flexibility in this sense.

No military intervention in wars being fought by other nations (isolationism)

Yes, very true. If only we had been more apt to preserve that ideal.

More freedom and control for states

Again, we initially tried and failed. The Articles of Confederation was a mess.

I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with these policies I am merely pointing out how I think the "ideal" America would be. Ideal according to a wide variety of sources such as prominent american figures and different writings.

these are great points to bring up, I have never thought of this before. I wonder if many of the founding Fathers would have been happy to see what America has become and how we carry ourselves.

[Bwaho]

I wonder if many of the founding Fathers would have been happy to see what America has become and how we carry ourselves.

a mongrel for president, huge government and the constitution being trampled all over.


No they would be miserable

[Pontifex Maximus]

a mongrel for president

Not to mention an African American president elect, eh?

huge government and the constitution being trampled all over.

I guess that all depends on how you look at it.

No they would be miserable

I think they would be happy to see that America has risen to be one of the most powerful nations in the world, but I don't think they would be satisfied with the means.

[Lord Consul]

True enough, Bwaho.

The large Hispanic population would also send chills down their spine. Ben Franklin, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson had a wealth of not so nice words to describe "the barbaric lands of Spanish America" where "priests tower over the common man", concluding that "no civilization may emerge in a land ruled by priests".

As you can see, they did not have a very high opinion of Catholics (pack your things and leave, Kennedy) and Hispanics.

[Kscott]

No military intervention in wars being fought by other nations (isolationism)

Besides a quote from Washington, I would say this has never really been part of the American ideal. We have been fighting since conception. Simply look at Jefferson's intervention with the Barbary Pirates.

[Last Roman]

Besides a quote from Washington, I would say this has never really been part of the American ideal. We have been fighting since conception. Simply look at Jefferson's intervention with the Barbary Pirates.

indeed. Americans have been a very war like people from the get go.

[Gelgoog]

indeed. Americans have been a very war like people from the get go.

indeed, probably because we were made up from alot of very warlike europeans

[Romanman]

how America would be if many traditional American ideals and values were in place.


No welfare

No socialized health care

Hardly any tax, only to fund the most vital things like the army and government. No income tax.

America to be mainly populated by Anglo-Saxons instead of the lesser "swarthy" europeans such as germans, french, italians etc (these were Benjamin Franklin's wishes)

No military intervention in wars being fought by other nations (isolationism)

More freedom and control for states




I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with these policies I am merely pointing out how I think the "ideal" America would be. Ideal according to a wide variety of sources such as prominent american figures and different writings.

i agree with everything except the anglo-saxon part and as for the last one "More freedom and control for states" that was a debated topic a the beginning US history do you know of the federalists and democratic republicans.

[Viking Prince]

Those ideals, if they ever existed, were for a time and place 250 years ago with a smaller and much more of a rural population. Times change and ideals need to suit circumstances.

No welfare --more urban today

No socialized health care == again more urban (not that it is completely socialized, yet)

Hardly any tax, only to fund the most vital things like the army and government. No income tax. -- taxes are related to expenditures, see above

America to be mainly populated by Anglo-Saxons instead of the lesser "swarthy" europeans such as germans, french, italians etc (these were Benjamin Franklin's wishes) -- I guess that I will need to go to the lands of my ancestors then, but I am not a citizen of those lands. No need to keep the Statue of Liberty -- send it back to the French when we repatriate (ship out / deport / banish) the descendants.

No military intervention in wars being fought by other nations (isolationism) -- granted but is this possible when those nations, if left alone, tend to spread the problems over the whole world?

More freedom and control for states -- depends what you mean, they are not independant.