Byzantines and Crusades

[Nikephorus16]

What will happen to the byzantines during the crusading period? Originally the Emporer Alexios tried to put the Latins under his control with the Treaty of Devol. He later estranged his relationship with the crusaders with the capture of Nicea and other such incidences. He had to go to war with some of the trouble some lords such as Bohemund of Antioch and Tancred. The Byzantines pretty much saw the crusaders as a mercenary expedition gone arwray. Will the byzantines only get more Latin mercenaries during this time or will the Kingdom of Jerusalem be a direct vassal of the Byzantines as they were supposed to be?

[OdinX]

Well the thing about the byzantines and the crusaders was that the crusaders were becoming an incredible force in the east; at one point in time, during the first crusade, there was enough crusaders to besiege the entire capital of Constantinople if they wanted to. I think it was something like 60,000+ soldiers going through the city.

[Hansa]

The Byzantines pretty much saw the crusaders as a mercenary expedition gone arwray. Will the byzantines only get more Latin mercenaries during this time or will the Kingdom of Jerusalem be a direct vassal of the Byzantines as they were supposed to be?

Anna Comnena seems to suggest that the first Crusade camep completely out of the blue and that the whole crusade was initiated by Peter the Hermit. Whether this is an attempt to rid Alexius of any responsibility for the whole affair, or Anna is telling the truth, is another question though.

Well the thing about the byzantines and the crusaders was that the crusaders were becoming an incredible force in the east; at one point in time, during the first crusade, there was enough crusaders to besiege the entire capital of Constantinople if they wanted to. I think it was something like 60,000+ soldiers going through the city.

Yupp that is correct, not only for the First crusade but also for the French and German contingents on the second, the German on the third etc. Most modern estimates put the entire military forces of the Barons Crusade during the First Crusade at around 60 000 strong. Only tiny contingents of Crusaders was allowed into Constantinople during the First Crusade though, so there were not more than about 5 crusaders at one time going through the city.

And if you grant the crusaders passage through your lands you have to pay a sum of money which represents supplying the armies. Anthonius is right about diplomacy. I was disipointed by diplomacy in SS and vanilla. I hope DotS has put in some new stuff.

This certainly happened, for instance the King of Hungary put up a huge sum to pay german crusaders not to loot the Hungarian lands while the German contingent was passing through Hungary on their way to the Levant during the Second Crusade. One must also remember that Crusaders normally payed for their supplies. In fact the Byzantines in particular were known for charging ridiculously high prizes for their grain supplies, so the passing crusaders could at times be a major economic benefit for the local rural population.

[Nikephorus16]

Yes, the crusaders were powerful, but how will the situation between the Byzantines and the Crusaders be portrayed in DotS. The Byzantines did not want a full scale invasion of the holy land, they only wanted some mercenaries. Will the Byzantines, at the time of the crusades, get an influx of Latin mercenaries in there territories? BTW I was just tossing this idea around to help you guys make the game stronger. Not trying to sound like a jerk or anything.

[OdinX]

Well we're still thinking about how crusades are going to be carried out, but my guess is that yes there will most likely be an influx in mercenaries.

[AnthoniusII]

It would be nice for the player that would play with Romans, a message to apear (like MTW) to ask:"Crusaders are heading to-the city's name-...will you give them the permision to cross your lands?

A message like that could:
a)if the answer would be "yes"
1: make relations with Pope and the crusading faction better
2: make relations with the muslim faction target worst
3: have negative affect with the rest muslim factions
b) if the answer would be "no"
1: make relations with the Pope and the crusading faction worst
2:could be a cause for the crusading faction to declair war to Romans
3: make the relations with the faction target and the rest of the muslim world better!

Diplomacy was and still is crussial!
We should give the proper tools (and their affects) to the players!!!

[OdinX]

Diplomacy was and still is crussial!
We should give the proper tools (and their affects) to the players!!!

Undeniably. However, you should know more than anymore that we're working hard on diplomacy and trying to make it what it was supposed to be. As for the ideas, why don't you take it up with Azim and see if he accepts it?

[Nikephorus16]

And if you grant the crusaders passage through your lands you have to pay a sum of money which represents supplying the armies. Anthonius is right about diplomacy. I was disipointed by diplomacy in SS and vanilla. I hope DotS has put in some new stuff.

[Nikephorus16]

You can delete this thread if you want. I know there is always a problem with spam on these things.

[acegogo]

Hi all....

I would only add to Hansa´s comments about making money of passing by crusades would be to reduce Farms outputs, yes they charge big sums of money for their grain, but not necessarilly willing. I mean, high priced grain, yes but loads sold/taken (not all was paid for) so famine could strike in small production centers.

[Nikephorus16]

Nice! More money on one hand, lower population growth and income from farming. What do you choose?

[Walkman810i]

Long term effect of pop grow and income from farming of course!

[Easyone]

Will it be done better crusade than in vanila, cause in vanila you can't get to the Holly Land....it is too much desertation...?

[Zennek]

I hope in your mod muslim faction will be much more powerful, because in vanilla they couldn't resist huge armies of crusaders we should remember that in fact only 20% crusaders survived and captured Jerusalem during real crudased

[Seether]

I hope in your mod muslim faction will be much more powerful, because in vanilla they couldn't resist huge armies of crusaders we should remember that in fact only 20% crusaders survived and captured Jerusalem during real crudased

That is untrue. Maybe only 20% of the original force reached Jerusalem, but the other 80% did not die on the way there. Remember that The Principality of Antioch, and the Counties of Edessa and Tripoli were established before the Crusaders reached Jerusalem; so a lot of manpower was diverted from the main force right there. Thousands of Crusaders did died, but 45,000 (as you suggest) is an absurd number.

[Copperknickers II]

The Muslim factions will indeed be more powerful, we hope to give them on average larger unit rosters, more transitions and less political complications to balance the larger number and larger map area of the European factions, and the crusades. The addition of Syria for example will spice things up a bit in the crusades.