Oriental Blades Illustrated

[Cromagnon2]

I think it's already in the game Sword of the Prophet (or of Allah) of something like that.

Really? I don't remember seeing it.

Here is a very nice decorated Ottoman axe.





Leaves and flowers were often used in early Turkish arts because images of humans and animals were forbidden in Islam.

[Big Pacha]

Really? I don't remember seeing it.

It's the {sword_of_mohammed} ancillary. Just checked.

Here is a very nice decorated Ottoman axe.

You forgot the pic

Leaves and flowers were often used in early Turkish arts because images of humans and animals were forbidden in Islam.

That's persian influence on early nomadic turks.
See the TAJ MAHAL, the great monument of oriental islamic art and achievement, a few centuries later.

[The Noble Lord]

Nice pics. But majority of the swords shown are already in use in the BC mod. Furthermore, to create a whole thread just to criticize the shape and authenticity of the swords and sabers is little bit too much, don't you think.

[Cromagnon2]

That's persian influence on early nomadic turks.

Yeah, correct, i forgot to mention that.

[Copperknickers II]

Nice pics. But majority of the swords shown are already in use in the BC mod. Furthermore, to create a whole thread just to criticize the shape and authenticity of the swords and sabers is little bit too much, don't you think.

Not a criticism as such, more of a commentary with some constructive criticism and discussion inset.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I did not find any criticism in this thread, just a normal discussion about swords used in the period.

As a sword collector, I find that the edged weapons in BC are pretty well made. Of course, one can always find errors, but there must be balance between making the units and weapons accurate and making them unique and fun.

The biggest problem for me is that most of the weapons in the game are based on 18-19th century weapons, or at least weapons later to the period the mod covers:
- The yataghan (I have not seen any in the mod, btw) is a 16th century development. At least the earliet known ones were made for Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent in the early 16th century. It is known as the favorite janissary weapon, but I found this doubtful. The yataghan is essentially an oversized knife, not a sword, even though some examples can get pretty long.
- The Omani khanjar, as depicted in the mod, may not have existed prior to the 19th century. Ibn Batuta mentions the word jannbiya, which essentially means the same weapon, especially in Yemen, in one of his writings, but I cannot read Arabic and this was an English translation, so who knows. I do not know of any khanjars/jannbiyas prior to the 18-19th centuries, apart from some dubious claims by dealers of such items.
- Same goes for the so-called Khyber knives of the Ghorids. Sure, those were put to some amazing use by the Afghans in the mid 19th century against the British, but I am not sure how old of a weapon form this is and whether it predates the Moghul arrival. The hilt is very turkic in construction and appearance, and so is the scabbard.
- The shamshir is the persian variation of the Turkic/Central Asian sabre, and it is believed that it appeared in the 15th century or the 14th century at the earliest. It was used before this, and it is just a generic word, literally meaning sword. Any sword. It was used even before the arrival of the Turks, and it is likely that for the most part, in the period of the mod, most Persian swords were straight.
- Kilidj is the Turkish word for sword, any sword. I have been told that Turks call the Persian shamshirs simply "kilidj adjemi". Of course, nowadays, from our Western perspective, we differentiate between the two words, but generally, they mean the same thing.
- The Mameluks used both cuved sabres and straight, double edged swords. Actually, the double edged straight broadswords must have been quite popular, for the form survived until nowadays in Sudan and areas of Ethiopia.

So if we want the mod to be perfectly accurate, then most of the swords of almost all the factions should be straight, boring broadswords. This will be incredibly dull, and I like what the team has done by taking later, but unique weapons and adding an immense amount of flavour to BC.

That being said, I like swords, and I do not mind seeing more in this thread.

[Kavhan Isbul]

To make up for my boring post above, here are some other bladed weapons for the region of BC (of course, much much later): a yataghan, 19century from Anatolia; three large khanjars from teh Hejaz and Asir (on the Red Sea coastline of Arabia); a Khyber Knife from Afghanistan and an Uzbeki shashka from Maza-i-Sherif (a town currently in Afghanistan but with an Uzbeki ethnic majority); and a 19th century broadsword from Darfur, which in shape is perhaps not much different from what Mameluk armies faced on their campaigns South back in the day.

Sometimes, when playing BC, I like to keep some of these weapons beside me to enhance the experience.

[Faris ad Din]

- The Omani khanjar, as depicted in the mod, may not have existed prior to the 19th century. Ibn Batuta mentions the word jannbiya, which essentially means the same weapon, especially in Yemen, in one of his writings, but I cannot read Arabic and this was an English translation, so who knows. I do not know of any khanjars/jannbiyas prior to the 18-19th centuries, apart from some dubious claims by dealers of such items.

I happen to be able to read (some) Arabic. Not enough to just read the accounts of Ibn Battuta fluently and then there is the challenge of finding a copy of the original in the USA but anyway -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambiya
جمبية - written "jmbyh" or 'jambiyyah'
or
جنبية - written "jnbyh" or 'janbiyyah'
It probably matters little in a principally oral language. I have seen "jambiya" a bit more often, and as the name and logo of one restaurant in Brooklyn, NYC.

As an aside, the root "jnb" means "south" in Arabic -
"janub" جنوب means "south"
"janūbi" جنوبي (masculine) and "janūbiyyah" جنوبية (feminine) mean "southern" as an adjective. There may be some connection between the two words. I feel Arabic has one tendency to make unusually and whimsically related names - imagine calling a shotgun simply a "Southern" like some American thugs really did call cheap handguns a "Saturday Night Special."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanjar
خنجر - written "khnjr" or "khanjar" ("kh" representing the sound in "J. S. Bach" "Loch Ness")

But to the point - can you tell the difference between the pictures in either article? The writers evidently felt no need to write a full article on the Omani khanjar and simply referred to the article on the Yemeni jambiya. I surmise they are different names for pretty much the same thing in different regions - that headscarf on my head could alternatively be called a ghutrah in the Gulf regions, a shemagh, or a keffiyeh (in the Palestine/Jordan region). The robes were called jilbab by the Moroccan lady who sold it to me, but specifically white robes are called thawb/thobe in the Gulf area and Arabian peninsula.

EDIT: I had to add an edition to the post after all. A third term for Arab-style ankle-length robes is dishdasha, I believe used in the Palestine/Jordan region and perhaps Egypt/Syria+Lebanon. How can we forget, given that's the term more often used by American/British military personnel and news media. Also, I know the difference as to where "jambiya/janbiya" and "khanjar" are used in Yemen and Oman, respectively - unless you know that I know, Kavhan Isbul!

[Kavhan Isbul]

Personally, I can tell the differences, as subtle as they are, as the hilts are different, and the scabbards too. However, this really does not matter, as these reflect regional variations of the same weapon.
As for the khanjar/jambiya debate, I believe "jambiya" is a word, used in Yemen, and "khanjar" is used almost everywhere else, from the Balkans, where it must have come with the Ottomans, to Northern India (and obviously in Oman as well). Among Western collectors, jambiya is the more popular term. But I agree, it is a matter of etymology.

[Big Pacha]

Nice pics. But majority of the swords shown are already in use in the BC mod. Furthermore, to create a whole thread just to criticize the shape and authenticity of the swords and sabers is little bit too much, don't you think.

This is ABSOLUTELY NOT the purpose of this thread, that I lead here for cultural purpose and eventually BC improvement.

I won't even comment the accusation of "criticism". Just know that I feel offended by your comments, as I spent quite some time finding pics and checking infos for all of you.

Glad to see that some fellow easterners (and some cossacks) are still interested in military art and oriental weaponry discussions.

BTW great posts Khavzan and Faris keep it up!

[The Noble Lord]

No offense meant my friend, I am all for the historical research and discussion that helps us to improve our mod.
But sometimes it turns into the unnecessary criticism of the swords that are in the game already and they are good as it is, I mean remember the swords in vanilla and you will be happy with these ones that we have in the BC.
Also, we already had this same thread while ago and it was closed if I remember correctly.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=173955


CHEERS

[Big Pacha]

No offense meant my friend, I am all for the historical research and discussion that helps us to improve our mod.
But sometimes it turns into the unnecessary criticism of the swords that are in the game already and they are good as it is, I mean remember the swords in vanilla and you will be happy with these ones that we have in the BC.

I hope It wasn't intended (because that would be trolling) but... did you at least read our posts here? If you did, how can you write such nonsense?

We're discussing of what interests us and my personal goal is to make a catalog of oriental blades + my personal education. No polemics, no unneccessary "criticism" (btw even if that was the case, that's freedom of speech thank you). The only trouble here is the one you bring by an unneccesary criticism of other people's choice of discussion.

I'm sure it wasn't intended, considering your positive interventions anywhere else, but you should admit you got it wrong here. It happens, and reckoning it is a sign of intelligence btw.

Also, we already had this same thread while ago and it was closed if I remember correctly.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=173955

So what? This is a thread about turkish bladed weaponry only and my goal is a bit larger here but thank you for these lost refs. The pics will add to my collection.

BTW, even if it was the same topic why can't we revive it? Considering the quality of some posts here it's more than justified and your unneccessary criticism is irrelevant.

Nothing big here this is just a misunderstanding.

Now back to topic please.

Kavhan: nice collection you have here. As an amateur I appreciate that I'd like some more info on that khyber knife (looks like more a cutlass than a knife IMO) so feel free to post.

[The Noble Lord]

No probs.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Big Pacha, thank you very much, I like these pieces a lot myself.
Your observations on the so called Khyber knife are very apt - it is certainly pretty big. I am not sure what is the local name for this weapon. Among the British it was also known as a Salawar Yataghan, although the only similarity between it and a yataghan is in the hilt. Apparently, armed with such knives and "jezail" rifles the Afghans wiped out almost an entire British column of 10,000 men during the first Afghan War in the mid 19th century. Due to this incident, these weapons gained a lot of fame, just like the Sudanese broadswords of the Mahdists later on. It is nice to see this type of weapon in BC - the Pushtun warriors are armed with Khyber knives, and maybe some of the other Afghan units.

[Big Pacha]

You are mostly welcome.
I think other ghorid units have this kind of blade. Pretty cool indeed, and very "ghorid" (the "cleaver" policy vs. Rajputs ) even if it's not exactly accurate due to BC's time frame but I don't care it's cool.

Here we have some of the Ghorids favorite slashing weapon, the dreaded Khyber knife:

The Big Bad Blade itself:

Thin blade style:


Thick blade stye:


Focus on the hilt:



Afghan scabbard:



BROKEN CRESCENT'S KHYBER FOLKS. This screener is taken from BC's Levies and Mercenaries thread:



Nice, isn't it? BC Team, you kick ***

And Now... the INDIANA JONES KHYBER KNIFE !!! Tam Tadam Taaam...

It's a "toy" replica for Indy fans, but this is so

ATTENTION this is not a Khyber knife but I couldn't resist:

SUDANESE SHORTSWORD



That's for MAKURIA

INDIAN (MOGHUL) KHANJAR DAGGER WITH SCABBARD



That's for Copperknickers

For those who legitimately wonder why I'm compiling all that stuff, here's the plan: I'm writing (PDF) an illustrated catalog, the Blades of Broken Crescent, with commentaries and refs. This thread is my scratchbook.

[lahmacun]

brother maybe you should add a sword that has the shape of the thulfikar (zulfikar)

the sword of imam Ali Alahi Salaam

just an idea..

[Kavhan Isbul]

Big Pacha, I am absolutely positive the khanajr you have shown is not Indian or Moghul at all, but from Iraq, and more specifically of the southern area. It is attributed by authors such as Elgoos in his excellent book on Arab arms and armor to the so-called Marsh Arabs.

As for zulfikar, noone knows how it looked like, except that most likely it was straight, double edged and had a forked blade, of course. Interpretations abound, especially in late 19th century Persia.

[Big Pacha]

To Lahmasun: I'll make some research but as Kavhan suggested it's very hypotethical

To Kavhan: considering your (relative) expertise I trust you. I just took the info on the pic's website. It sounded well documented and serious so I took it. I'll check that and correct. I thought it was quite strange too, as the knife doesn't look like a khanjar, and doesn't look like Moghul craftwork either. Thanks for notifying anyway.

[Shogun144]

I did not find any criticism in this thread, just a normal discussion about swords used in the period.

As a sword collector, I find that the edged weapons in BC are pretty well made. Of course, one can always find errors, but there must be balance between making the units and weapons accurate and making them unique and fun.

The biggest problem for me is that most of the weapons in the game are based on 18-19th century weapons, or at least weapons later to the period the mod covers:
- The yataghan (I have not seen any in the mod, btw) is a 16th century development. At least the earliet known ones were made for Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent in the early 16th century. It is known as the favorite janissary weapon, but I found this doubtful. The yataghan is essentially an oversized knife, not a sword, even though some examples can get pretty long.
- The Omani khanjar, as depicted in the mod, may not have existed prior to the 19th century. Ibn Batuta mentions the word jannbiya, which essentially means the same weapon, especially in Yemen, in one of his writings, but I cannot read Arabic and this was an English translation, so who knows. I do not know of any khanjars/jannbiyas prior to the 18-19th centuries, apart from some dubious claims by dealers of such items.
- Same goes for the so-called Khyber knives of the Ghorids. Sure, those were put to some amazing use by the Afghans in the mid 19th century against the British, but I am not sure how old of a weapon form this is and whether it predates the Moghul arrival. The hilt is very turkic in construction and appearance, and so is the scabbard.
- The shamshir is the persian variation of the Turkic/Central Asian sabre, and it is believed that it appeared in the 15th century or the 14th century at the earliest. It was used before this, and it is just a generic word, literally meaning sword. Any sword. It was used even before the arrival of the Turks, and it is likely that for the most part, in the period of the mod, most Persian swords were straight.
- Kilidj is the Turkish word for sword, any sword. I have been told that Turks call the Persian shamshirs simply "kilidj adjemi". Of course, nowadays, from our Western perspective, we differentiate between the two words, but generally, they mean the same thing.
- The Mameluks used both cuved sabres and straight, double edged swords. Actually, the double edged straight broadswords must have been quite popular, for the form survived until nowadays in Sudan and areas of Ethiopia.

So if we want the mod to be perfectly accurate, then most of the swords of almost all the factions should be straight, boring broadswords. This will be incredibly dull, and I like what the team has done by taking later, but unique weapons and adding an immense amount of flavour to BC.

That being said, I like swords, and I do not mind seeing more in this thread.

Excellent post Kavhan!

I thought that the swords here did not pre-date the Mongol invasions, nice to see my thoughts confirmed. Especially on the yataghan and shamshir, which I was positive did not exist until, at least in popular form, until the 14th-15th Centuries at least. Did not know about the khanjar though. Again excellent work.

If I could, I would rep you.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Personally, I'd rep the person who created the models for the weapons in the mod. They may not be 100% historically accurate, but they sure look nice and are based on actual weapons, which is so much better than the fantasy inspired cleavers featured in vanilla.