Battle Tactics, need help

[Vae victis]

I've recently played a few games of RTR:EXRM and I forgot how awesome the battle AI is. I could use some tips on how to control my phalanxes better. The AI seems to move them around the battlefield as fast as tanks. I like the challange but it makes it hard for me to engage the enemy phalaxes with my own, which seem to move as slow as molases.

I could also use some tips on how to effectivly deal with skirmishers/missles when I am primaraly using phalaxes. The cavalry I use get really chewed up. Sometimes I would like to just fight a head on battle without dealing with all the stupid enemy missle units. Most of the time my strategy is to engage them with cavalry, but then the enemy planxes chase my cavalry,lol, usually at the same speed, and then the well ordered battle that I wanted to fight becomes an unmanagable mayham.

Is there any way to have more managable battles? Is there a mod or a file that I can change to slow enemy phlanx units and decrease missle damage? What is the best way to engage an enemy force that contains many missles/skirmishers along with phalanx/tough infantry? Also, how many seasons/turns are there in the campaign? Thanks.

[fourganger]

What faction are you using? Without knowing, it's hard to be exactly specific as to what to bring to the field.

The site of your heavy cavalry charging should be enough to make enemy skirmishers retreat. If they don't retreat, charge and withdraw. It'll stop them from firing and your cavalry won't get caught by AI spears. But those javelins won't do a whole lot from the front anyhow.

If you need speed, take your guys out of phalanx and run, then stop and form up.

[Strasbourg]

If the enemy has missile superiority, you can take all your units out of phalanx and run them towards the enemy, when they're about to engage, have them form up into a phalanx.

The thing about phalanxes is that they're not great at killing enemies on their own. You also need missile superiority or cavalry superiority to help them out. If u have missile superiority then you can buckle down and let the ranged kill each other until yours win, at which point your range can flank the enemy. If you have cavalry superiority you can just ride down the missile, kill them off and then smash against the back of the enemy.

The only armies that can really get away with being heavy melee are the romans and germans.

[Jamey]

The only way to deal with missiles is to bring cavalry or other missiles. With a phalanx army, I never have less than 2 (ideally 4) units of heavy cavalry (including generals), 2 (ideally 4) units of infantry flankers (normally heavy swords if I can), and 4 units of missiles as support. The slow speed and inflexibility of a pike line makes it extremely vulnerable to flanking actions. These support troops allow the pike line to serve its priimary purpose (in game, at least) - pinning enemy troops.

You should generally keep your pike units out of phalanx formation until you approach the point of contact. The AI will (quite rationally) almost never frontally engage a pike line in phalanx formation.

My basic tactics with the pike line are fairly simple. I advance it in formation toward the opponents (including the flanking heavy infantry). I bring up missile units behind the line to the point that they can fire on enemy ranged units or cavalry. My missile priority is normally missile cavalry -> missiles -> javelin cavalry -> javelins -> melee cavalry -> other unengaged enemies. I will often tell my missiles to cease fire and conserve ammo until a better target is available. Against enemy missile cavalry, this is especially important.

While this is happening, I have my cavalry on the flanks of my pike line. If I have the opportunity to bring them to bear against enemy missiles, non-spear light infantry, or enemy cavalry (especially generals) I will attack with them ahead of my main force. Otherwise they stay on the flanks and wait for the enemy infantry to be largely engaged. I want to emphasize that it is extremely dangerous to send your cavalry forward before the enemy main line is engaged. If you become engaged by an enemy spear unit or take a charge from heavy cavalry, you can quickly see your cavalry cut to ribbons.

Once the lines are engaged, I will bring my cavalry into the enemy rear. They will sweep up enemies there using the same priority list as missiles except that the enemy commander is cavalry target #1. Once opportunity targets are taken out by cavalry, I begin charging it into the rear of enemy concentrations. Hitting the rear or enemy spear units (especially hoplites) is dangerous - as soon as the charge lands home you need to pull your cavalry out and reform it some distance away. Failure to do so will again result in your cavalry being cut to ribbons.

Some important notes:

1. Make sure that your cavalry hits with a full charge whenever possible. If you do not, their effectiveness will be much smaller. There are various guides around describing how to do that, so I won't repeat it here.
2. Make sure you don't shoot your own units with your missile troops. Shots to the rear of your units will be much more devastating than shots to the front of enemy units with shields. At one point, I accidentally hit my skirmisher cavalry in the rear with a 4 unit volley of shots intended for the enemy skirmisher cavalry (from experienced archers). I lost half of my skirmisher cavalry with that one volley. It was a painful but instructive experience.
3. Always protect your flanks. This is important for all armies, but it is vital for pikes. It may be worthwhile to keep an infantry reserve between your archers and your main body as it advances. Playing as Rome, I normally used my Triarii for this purpose (I deployed them to either side of the missile troops and brought them forward when the missile troops stopped to fire). The Triarii only fought in about half of my battles, but they often prevented enemy cavalry from getting into my archers or my main line from being flanked. It has been often stated that the one who commits his reserves last wins the battle. There is truth to that statement.

[Ramiro]

I am sick tired of the running phalanxes and the suicide generals. Literally. Thats why I have leaved RTW and all it good mods behid (for a while at least). But the best counter tactics to this "each hoplite unit go for every cavalry and light unit in the field AI tactic" that freaks me out is to deploy archers in a very thin line in front of your pike phalanx so that the are literally among the pikes and then let the hoplites and enemy cavalry impale themselves.

No realistic tactic at all, the stupidiest AI ruins the excelent effort of so many mods developers. I have give up trying to fight realistic battles and now i only use all hipotoxotai armys or go straight for the sarmatians and use horse archers tactics. I have scored many a Heroic Victory with just 8 o 10 horse archer units agains all pikes armys

[despot_of_rhodes]

If you got an access to long range archers ( like cretan ones i.e ) then even with 2 units of them you´ll gonna get a nessesery missile superiority, since they´re actually deadly to skirmishers and especially missile cavalry, once their get in range.
Turn "fire at will" off and make sure, you use your archers allways against a missile unit, wich is trying to outflanc or simply approach your phalanx line. Don´t use fire missiles, only to panic the enemy before a cavalry charge i.e.

Charging missile troops with even heavy cavalry is not allways as easy as one may imagine - some missile units got pretty good morale + beeing near general or "eagle" unit, they often stay steady long enough, to rout your cavalry units ( but not your general bodyguards combined with other cavalry )

If you want to have really good phalanx battles, never fight with more then 1:1 odds and also, try to make the enemy attack you on the battle map. Feeling superior while the battleodds are not to your advantage, the AI almoust allways rushes forward to you and this gives you a real advantage, because phalangites ( the mac style ones ) almoust don´t have any charge bonus, but enormous defence value. And btw. winning those battles gives your generals awesome traits etc

[Strasbourg]

I am sick tired of the running phalanxes and the suicide generals. Literally. Thats why I have leaved RTW and all it good mods behid (for a while at least). But the best counter tactics to this "each hoplite unit go for every cavalry and light unit in the field AI tactic" that freaks me out is to deploy archers in a very thin line in front of your pike phalanx so that the are literally among the pikes and then let the hoplites and enemy cavalry impale themselves.

No realistic tactic at all, the stupidiest AI ruins the excelent effort of so many mods developers. I have give up trying to fight realistic battles and now i only use all hipotoxotai armys or go straight for the sarmatians and use horse archers tactics. I have scored many a Heroic Victory with just 8 o 10 horse archer units agains all pikes armys

Alexander almost died at Granicus. Caesar almost died in Spain. Antiochus got almost killed at Raphia. Stuff happens, generals die. If anything it's unrealistic how rarely generals die, considering I use them as main cavalry.

[Ramiro]

I am not speaking of the general units, I am speaking of the hoplite and pikemen units that chase your cavalry units almost at their same speed and go everywhere instead of forming a phalanx. I am bored of that aspect of the AI. I have never EVER fought a classical phalanx battle (on the AI side at least). I am beging for a mod that at least reduces that hoplite/pikemen speed AT LEAST a half or perhaps that doest allows to reenter phalanx formation after leaving it, something to try to byppas the stupid AI use of them.

[fourganger]

I am not speaking of the general units, I am speaking of the hoplite and pikemen units that chase your cavalry units almost at their same speed and go everywhere instead of forming a phalanx. I am bored of that aspect of the AI. I have never EVER fought a classical phalanx battle (on the AI side at least). I am beging for a mod that at least reduces that hoplite/pikemen speed AT LEAST a half or perhaps that doest allows to reenter phalanx formation after leaving it, something to try to byppas the stupid AI use of them.

You can probably mod it yourself to change their speed.

[despot_of_rhodes]

Is "flanking" hardcored, or can one change the behavior of a unit by changing smth. in formation files? ( i.e. "never flank with heavy hoplites" etc. )

Btw: Outflanking is a nice thing and i´m not historian enough to make a statement, but iirc the phalanx wasn´t ment to be a flexible formation but a solid block, like it´s discribed on the unit cards and there were other, lighter troops ( skirmishers, light infantry and of course cavalry ) wich were used to outflank the enemy line.

It´s even not just a matter of phalanx as such, any large battle was kind of clash of two infantry lines, wasn´t it? ( at least when it came to the battles between the civilized factions ). What we have now is: It´s allways best to outflank your enemy with you elite swordmen to cut through the rear or flancs of enemy formation, but those elite guys were actually nessesery in the main battle line - this way, one could achieve a clear victory, breaking enemeys moral by pushing forward or holding the line.

May be one could slow down the moving speed of heavy infantry somehow? ( at least their running speed and it the quality "hardy" would become even more importand i.e. )
And btw: I´m not quite sure and it could be just a "fata morgana", but i sometimes "noticed", that upgrading cavalry or skirmishers in armoury used to make them bit slower than usual ( could it be, that wearing heavier armour, or maybe when units become armouror upgrade, wich have none from the scratch, they become bit slower? )

[Quinn Inuit]

Speed is determined by the model used for the unit, I believe, but heavier armour will cause a unit to become exhausted more rapidly.

btw, I'm home for the holidays, so forum participation may be erratic. I hope to be back and heavily developing after the new year.

[Wien1938]

It is quite possible to win with a phalanx army - I've done so on countless occasions.

The trick is not too rely on your phalanx for a battlewinning charge but to get it into contact with the enemy. Against the AI, the best tact is not to present your lighter troops as an equal possibility for attack - i.e. phalanx forward and the other troops concealed behind it, with the cavalry on the wings but held well back.
This way the AI will do one of two things - 1. It will move towards your phalanx line, then try to outflank it - your cavalry and lighter troops then cooperate in mauling and destroying these forces (also the AI tends to dispatch odd units for this - easy meat). 2. It will hold still until you've formation-marched against their line and then a. the enemy will charge your levelled pikes or b. they will hold still long enough for the levelled pikes to be manoeuvred into contact - you don't need to tell them to attack, just formation-manoeuvre close enough to provoke an attack.
This way, the enemy has used 1/2 to 1/3 of their force against you intact phalanx line, leaving your lighter troops and cavalry with the initiative.

[St Naffatun]

Most of the time my strategy is to engage them with cavalry, but then the enemy planxes chase my cavalry,lol, usually at the same speed, and then the well ordered battle that I wanted to fight becomes an unmanagable mayham.

It sounds a bit like you're chasing skirmishers around with your cavalry (to "get the annoying buggers out of the way") while your infantry is standing there watching.

What you want to do is combine your infantry and cavalry so while your phalanx is advancing on the enemy infantry, your cavalry is chasing off skirmishers but without becoming fixated on any one enemy unit. You want to protect your infantry while they close on the enemy and cavalry is a good way to do it.

Once your infantry has the enemy infantry engaged and fixed in position you can go chasing off after skirmishers (although you might find more useful things to do with that cavalry like flank) without (hopefully) running into a wall of pointy things (unless there are two lines of battle etc).

Try not to fixate on one job - "now I will use my cavalry, now I will use my infantry" try instead to use things together in mutual support. Here mutual support means you cavalry is preventing enemy skirmishers attacking your infantry and your advancing infantry will stop any enemy infantry that want to make horse steaks out of your cavalry. The examples are endless, it's more a mental approach which will make you feel like a proper general and make the game more fun (imo).

[pannonian]

Try not to fixate on one job - "now I will use my cavalry, now I will use my infantry" try instead to use things together in mutual support. Here mutual support means you cavalry is preventing enemy skirmishers attacking your infantry and your advancing infantry will stop any enemy infantry that want to make horse steaks out of your cavalry. The examples are endless, it's more a mental approach which will make you feel like a proper general and make the game more fun (imo).

I find it's more effective to have the cavalry stand off, slightly behind the infantry, while your line advances. Sending the cav ahead of the infantry risks getting them involved in fighting, and cav does not stand well in protracted fights. Instead, if they're present and ready, but not yet involved, they're enough to deter enemy flanking movements (make sure there's a unit or two of light infantry in support), whilst keeping them intact. Once the main lines are locked, of course, then you can send them off to chase down enemy cav and missiles.

One conundrum I found when playing MNM was the multi-line army, with several lines of reserves. How does everyone deal with these?

[St Naffatun]

Sending the cav ahead of the infantry risks getting them involved in fighting

I can't see how anyone would decide to get their cavalry engaged when (as in example from the OP) the cavalry is there to ward off the sort of short range skirmish troops that inflict significant infantry casualties before the infantry close.

If the cavalry are engaged when their job (as in example from the OP) is to screen the advance of the infantry then the mutual support relationship has broken down due to one can only guess user error when controlling the unit.

Even if the cavalry run down the skirmish troops the supporting infantry are there for that eventuality because the cavalry is there to screen the infantry advance (meaning shooing away skirmishers as in the original post) and the infantry are there to support the cavalry in any UNLIKELY engagements (either due to user error of being too successful in running down skirmishers and getting bogged down).

The details are not as important as always bearing the concept of mutual support in mind. The weakness of one unit is offset by the strengths of another (mutual support). Just realise I've pretty much just retyped my original post stating things in an even more obvious manner Think I'll lie down for a bit.

[Wien1938]

On dealing with multiple line armies (i.e. Roman). The trick is to get your phalanx line into contact with their first line, since that will pin them down. The AI generally then either tries to flank your line or reinforces the attack against the phalanx.
If the latter case, then the missile troops have only to swing around and shoot into the rear, followed by selected heavy infantry and cavalry charges.
If the former case, then your reserves can trap and maul the second/third lines as they come around. Your cavalry are then REALLY important - smash the concentrations against the anvil of your reserve infantry.

[St Naffatun]

a nice example of cavalry and infantry in mutual support described by Caesar himself in the gallic wars

"Ariovistus all this time kept his army in camp: but engaged daily in cavalry skirmishes. The method of battle in which the Germans had practiced themselves was this. There were 6,000 horse, and as many very active and courageous foot, one of whom each of the horse selected out of the whole army for his own protection. By these [foot] they were constantly accompanied in their engagements; to these the horse retired; these on any emergency rushed forward; if any one, upon receiving a very severe wound, had fallen from his horse, they stood around him: if it was necessary to advance further than usual, or to retreat more rapidly, so great, from practice, was their swiftness, that, supported by the manes of the horses, they could keep pace with their speed."

[Vae victis]

Thanks for the Tips

I was playing a few campaigns as Pontus and was facing Selucid stacks of around 1/4 phalanx, 1/4 support infantry, 1/4, cavalry, and alot of missles.

I sent my calvary ahead of my lines to engage the skirmishers so that they couldnt inflict causulties on my infantry. The enemy infantry then chased my cavalry before my infantry forces could engage them. I will now try to use my forces in a mutual attack and see how that works out. I might also try to use more missles in my armies as well and keep them protected behind my phalanxes.

The reason I was sending my cavalry ahead was because missle damage really hurts my infantry. One volley can kill 10 to 15% of a unit and nearly send them running.

Does anyone ever run their missles ahead of their phalanxes, using stand and fight orders, so that they chase enemy missles and get into a good firing position? If I am short on troops and I run my phalanxes toward the enemy, do I have to stop them and put them into formation before they close with the enemy? What are some good tactics for fighting city battles? Thanks.

[Jamey]

What are some good tactics for fighting city battles? Thanks.

For stone walled cities, you'll want a few units of sword armed infantry for storming the walls. I've been known to hire Galatian Swords for single battles because I know they're going to get chewed up on the walls. Your swords push the siege towers and then fight the enemy on the walls. The objective of fighting on the walls is to capture a gate and any flanking towers. Once you've done that, your troops have access to the streets. Keep all your units out of range of the machine guns towers unless you are sending them up on the walls.

For wood walled settlements, the most vital units are missile units. I normally use 4 archers (preferably not slingers - their shots have less arc and thus tend to be less effective at indirect fire). I select a section of wall (most often with a gate in the middle) where I can bring 3 rams up to it without being fired upon by the towers. I deploy the missiles in pairs between the rams (i.e. ram-archer-archer-ram-archer-archer-ram) and deploy the rest of my troops behind them. I run the missiles up to the walls and use them to deny the AI the ability to defend against my rams. It's especially vital to take out any missile or javelin troops.

Once I breach the walls, I maneuver to my advantage. With phalanxes, I will deploy a solid line to defend each front, with missiles and/or javelins backing them up. Once the AI has sent its primary attacks against my troops, I advance to attack the main square from as many directions as possible. My objective is to entice the AI into attacking my best defensive troops while attacking its rear and flanks. If the AI is being passive in the square, this is easy. The AI will berserkly attack the first units which enter the square. Push your pike line in on one side of the square and then use cavalry and heavy infantry to attack the enemy's flanks and rear. Alternately, if you have missile ammo left, it is absolutely devastating to attack the rear of enemy units while they're engaged with your pike line.

Lastly, you will find that pathing is bad in towns. This is annoying with infantry, but it can be devastating with cavalry. If you cannot get your cavalry to implement a charge in streets (it can be challenging), don't use cavalry in towns except in the square.

[pannonian]

Once I breach the walls, I maneuver to my advantage. With phalanxes, I will deploy a solid line to defend each front, with missiles and/or javelins backing them up. Once the AI has sent its primary attacks against my troops, I advance to attack the main square from as many directions as possible. My objective is to entice the AI into attacking my best defensive troops while attacking its rear and flanks. If the AI is being passive in the square, this is easy. The AI will berserkly attack the first units which enter the square. Push your pike line in on one side of the square and then use cavalry and heavy infantry to attack the enemy's flanks and rear. Alternately, if you have missile ammo left, it is absolutely devastating to attack the rear of enemy units while they're engaged with your pike line.

Cavalry is wasted on attacking engaged enemy troops in the square, as their most potent weapon, their ability to cause routs, doesn't apply. Get a line of three high defence units lined up and advance them onto the square, the middle one running ahead of the side ones so it reaches the square first and attracts their attention (thus ensuring your anvil won't be flanked). Keep them on defence so they don't tire or move out of formation, and let the enemy tire itself out on your anvil while your hammer moves to their rear. Once they're very tired, hit them. It rather exploits the predictable AI, but then the whole town square thing is an artificial construct anyway.

There's actually another, even more blatant exploit of predictable AI when it's defending a siege. Think AI troop deployment, and counting units.